Emergent Systems

[Numsgil]

Good!

Why are we yelling?!   :wacko:

[Ulciscor]

Argh!

But in DB all the actions are done by some magical force that has no basis on the environment! Bots move by some force with no source! Energy comes from nowhere at the same rate at every point in the environment! Ties aren't even defined except as bindngs between bots!

The point was to make an environment that is used to FULLY interact with the bots and for them to use it to do all actions.

[Numsgil]

But why must we define these interactions?

Does it really matter how a bot moves?  In the end we still will have a list of actions that can and can't be done by bots.

[Ulciscor]

For a start there will be no worrying about artificial rules being introduced, which a lot of people seem to be thinking about at the moment.

Also defining abilities based on the environment will allow every possible behaviour and action that can be thought of for that environment.

[Numsgil]

But see that's just it.  It's impossible to form a system where every possible future thing we can ever imagine the bots doing is a natural product of the rules of interactions of substances.

Why?  Well, first we'd have to define what the bots even are.  That would limit what they can become, which I'm not sure I like.  Are the bots animals?  Cells?  Robots?

Second, alot of what real cells do is the result of some complex physical rules.  That sounds nice at first, until you realize that complex rules means CPU time.  For instance, calculating flow of medium around a flagella is a project in and of itself.

[Ulciscor]

Why does what the bots are even matter? They are entities that can manipulate the environment in specific ways and do so based upon their DNA.

The answer to (2) is not introduce potentially complex situations. Don't model chemical reactions. Don't give the entities flagellae. Don't allow them to broadcast EM radiation. All this kind of stuff. Make available situations as simple as possible, and take a shortcut for the complex ones and (yes I'm suggesting this) impose a direct rule instead of calculation.

[Numsgil]

And that's different fom now how?

[Ulciscor]

Well at the moment the environment is just a passive arena that contains the bots.  All the movement, energy etc has no actual source or meaning.

10 .up store makes the bot move forwards, but the force has no source or meaning; I suppose you could say the DNA interpreter is magically moving the bots with no visible cause.

Say DNA was instead composed of more basic actions.

eject material x from rear
eject material y from front
hold substance z

This would surely allow much more freedom in programming complex behaviour? It would be more difficult to program to be sure, but would allow all sorts of complex behaviours. More importantly (for me) it would allow emergent behaviour, which interests me loads.

I'm not putting Db down, I think it's an awesome program and everyone has done a great job on it. I'm just suggesting alternate methods for make sims that are based on a slightly different concept.

[Numsgil]

10 .up store does indeed have a meaning.

It is just an abstract meaning.  It implies a conversion of the substance nrg into an impulse, which then may or may not cause the bot to move.  The amount moved depends on friction, drag, mass, etc.

Now, say we define that the bots are ejecting X out their rear causes movement by rocket propulsion  (Ignroing for the moment that no creature alive moves by squirting things out because the amount of energy needed to accomplish locomotion in this matter is phenomenal (squids and jellyfish are probably the closest, but they aren't really doing that exactly)).

Let's take the process and have it occur within some "black box" that we don't look inside of.  In the way it works now:

nrg -> black box -> impulse

what you're proposing:

some element -> black box -> impulse.

The only details that are different are inside the black box.  But the bots don't get to tinker with the black box eitehr way.  Both are just physical consequences of the world.

I just think in the end you're going to end up with more or less exactly what we have now, just with different labels.

[Ulciscor]

OK well here's probably where we disagree about what artificial life means. Does it have to be a model of currently existing life on Earth? Or can it be any entity that satisfies the 7(?) rules for life?

But what causes the bot to move? What is the source of the force that makes it (attempt) to move forwards? What is the meaning of a force with no source? (Hehe I rock at poetry)

I'm thinking that this system will allow more realistic, non-artificial and natural behaviours than the current one. It's only an idea though.

[Numsgil]

But we're just begging the question.

Current version:

Bots .up'ing move forward.  Where does the force come from?

You're proposing:

Bots move forward by firing something backwards, or some such.  But why does this produce a forward force?

Do you see what I'm getting at?

[Ulciscor]

Yeah I agree. You could go on like that forever.

Maybe you could state that the environment obeys Newton's laws of motion. You could also say that it doesn't. Or that it obeys different laws. Wouldn't it be interesting to see how life develops in universes with different physical laws?

Also I was envisioning how the movement and other actions of bots could affect the environment. Movement would leave behind a stream of particles which could then be added to the environment itself, and would either be used by other bots or remain there.

I might well be spouting the most marvellous crap in the world in my head I can't see why there is a problem.

[Numsgil]

I just don't see what it adds necessarily.  It's just all different words for the same thing.

Leaving a stream of shots behind could be seen as the waste product of moving.  Sort of like waste right now, don't you think?

[Ulciscor]

Well what is waste at the moment? Why do bots need to eject it? Where does it go? Why is it bad for bots to accumulate it? I'd personally like to see these questions answered by a system that contains the rules of the detrimental effects of materials on bots.

DB is entirely bot-based. I'd like to see a sim that was at least 50% environmentally based.

I think it might be all a matter of differing interests.

[Numsgil]

Probably is...

In the end evolution is going to respond to whatever physical rules it can't control.  Wether these are arbitrary or no doesn't really change anything for evolution.  That is what I'm pointing out.