Author Topic: Emergent Systems  (Read 45994 times)

Offline Ulciscor

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« Reply #90 on: October 26, 2005, 06:55:32 PM »
Right I do see what you are saying. I guess this is what it comes down to.

DB is based on bot interaction and evolution is driven by arms-races between bots.

The other method is that evolution is driven by a dynamic environment which is altered by the bots in it.

OK bots may be part of the environment but the actual space has no effect in DB apart from giving spatial boundaries.

I think seeing how populations change and adapt due to fluctuations in environmental changes would be extremely interesting too.
:D Ulciscor :D

I used to be indecisive, but now I'm not so sure.

Offline Numsgil

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« Reply #91 on: October 26, 2005, 07:01:02 PM »
I do think that bots should be able to interact with their environment in interesting ways, but that interaction should likewise be from the perspective of the leavings of other bots, or some inorganic energy source.

Like waste being dumped into the environment should stay and not go anywhere.

Offline Ulciscor

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« Reply #92 on: October 26, 2005, 07:02:23 PM »
Woohoo we agree on something!  :P

I suppose I just want the environmental stuff there for completeness, even if it doesn't have any real meaning. Although I still think it might... :rolleyes:
:D Ulciscor :D

I used to be indecisive, but now I'm not so sure.

Offline Greven

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« Reply #93 on: October 26, 2005, 07:55:13 PM »
Now we are right bakc were DB is now!!! Hhhmmm

Why can everybody see problems, were I see opportunity and possiblilities! Why give up, becuase it seems to be impossible?

I dont understand.

And Ulciscor, did drop this thing (not this thread because it started so promising, but know it seems the conclusion that DB is DB ;)) about discussion and trying to wake up PY and NUM (now it is only NUM I think) from their bot sleep. Alot what PY wrote here, were precise the same ideas I had for SoL, the only difference that PY stated them clearly (they (my thoughts) have been a little vague), and put them into another context.

DB's problem lies in that for at Bot to do something, the DNA have to place a value in the memory...

DNA -> MEMORY -> PROGRAM, the problem is the middle! Because, the you need 3 instructions to state this (often more, depending on the thing you want to do).
Avida f.example, uses instructions without any paramters, that is all instructions can work for it self, and will do something even when there could be parameters (this is simplified). DB has the stack, were value are placed from the DNA. That is a solution to the problem with paramters, and any instuction in DB can work without paramters, but that is not good enough.

Okay jumping to something other, but still related (I lost my point, typical me) I think it would be good if we start to reduce the number of sysvars and basic commands (that is store,or etc.) So we get a reduce number of possiblities. THIS WILL NOT (if done correctly) make DB less complex. Actually it could increase complexticty if they are working together of some sort.

I must say I dont have the solution, this was just meant as a proposal to discuss further...
« Last Edit: October 26, 2005, 07:57:38 PM by Greven »
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Offline Ulciscor

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« Reply #94 on: October 26, 2005, 08:00:15 PM »
I am not giving up [Greven]! Don't you worry. I am already pursuing this idea, and hopefully it will develop into something usable in time.
:D Ulciscor :D

I used to be indecisive, but now I'm not so sure.

Offline Numsgil

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« Reply #95 on: October 26, 2005, 08:01:26 PM »
I didn't decide on 1000 sysvars, it wasn't even my idea.

I only got here 10 months ago.

I just try to make as many things as possible backwards compatible.

I don't think the "problem" is the memory locations.  I think the "problem" is impatient people.

Offline Numsgil

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« Reply #96 on: October 26, 2005, 08:13:19 PM »
I may be dismissing ideas out of hand at the moment instead of evaluating them based purely on worth...

Perhaps suggesting changes in a more amiable manner might help  :bash: (not you Ulc, sorry if I seemed a bit rough...  point still stands I think though)

If the problem is in bots having trouble pinpointing the one number in 64000 that produces a result, what if we expand sysvars to a range?

Like 1 to 32 is .up, etc. etc.
« Last Edit: October 26, 2005, 08:15:03 PM by Numsgil »

Offline Greven

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« Reply #97 on: October 26, 2005, 08:19:35 PM »
Quote
I didn't decide on 1000 sysvars, it wasn't even my idea.
I only got here 10 months ago.

And here it goes again... Your one and only excuse!   :puke:
Funny that you think it was meant as a sort of insult or something!

I KNOW you didnt design it, but you seem extremely eager to keep it that way it is.

Why not making the bots them self decide how many memoryslots they have, and which of them do what (difficult I know, but not impossible, and could add something to DB)

Quote
I just try to make as many things as possible backwards compatible.
Actually if I remember right I havent seen a single post whining about this problem.

Quote
I don't think the "problem" is the memory locations. I think the "problem" is impatient people.

Well I presume that the "problem" is me!  :unsure: Well I did start my own project up, yes I think I did so, didnt I????

But well I still hope to influence the future of DB. Well you needed programmers Num, the "problem" is that you sometimes talk above peoples head, and are arrogant. I am a heck of a programmer in VB, Java, C++, SML you name it. I have from time to time tried to say I could help, but I never got any useful answers from you. It seems to me that you are the uncrowned king of programming DB, after all, why make it more difficult for your self and not add Bots code after all. It hard to read and decipher? Ask him to make it more readable, and to comment it, well I dont know. I havent tried bots code myself, or any of the newer versions, I will let that be until there exists a stable version, and when some of the major stuff get in.

Well, happy bug hunting!
 :evil:
« Last Edit: October 26, 2005, 08:20:28 PM by Greven »
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Offline Numsgil

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« Reply #98 on: October 26, 2005, 08:22:01 PM »
I do try to keep things backwards compatible.  And when I don't I repent and make them backwards comaptible anyway ;)

Yes, I like memory slots being used to determine action.  It's a pattern that works, and I don't see why we should change it.

Offline Greven

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« Reply #99 on: October 26, 2005, 08:27:06 PM »
Quote
I may be dismissing ideas out of hand at the moment instead of evaluating them based purely on worth...

Perhaps suggesting changes in a more amiable manner might help  :bash: (not you Ulc, sorry if I seemed a bit rough...  point still stands I think though)
Really I dont know what you have against me, but maybe beginning to treat specific people as equal members of this board, might be helping!

We are here for DB, not insulting each other, and dismissing ideas because I don not write the proper is utterly stupid, and a sign of ignorance!
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Offline shvarz

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« Reply #100 on: October 26, 2005, 08:29:20 PM »
Man, long discussion and kind of pointless and goes in circles again and again :wacko: :wacko: :wacko:

It would be a lot more coherent if instead of saying "the whole thing is wrong, the whole thing is going to crappers!", people would actually state what their exact problem is with current system, what exactly needs to be changed and why they think it would be much better.  :idea:
« Last Edit: October 26, 2005, 08:30:52 PM by shvarz »
"Never underestimate the power of stupid things in big numbers" - Serious Sam

Offline Numsgil

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« Reply #101 on: October 26, 2005, 08:30:28 PM »
Quote
We are here for DB, not insulting each other, and dismissing ideas because I don not write the proper is utterly stupid, and a sign of ignorance!
You have a very combative tone much of the time.  The sort of tone I don't respond well to.  (THat sounds like a threat doesn't it  :D )
« Last Edit: October 26, 2005, 08:31:30 PM by Numsgil »

Offline Numsgil

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« Reply #102 on: October 26, 2005, 08:31:08 PM »
Quote
Man, long discussion and kind of pointless and goes in circles again and again :wacko: :wacko: :wacko:

It would be a lot more coherent if instead of saying "the whole thing is wrong, the whole thing is going to crappers!", people would actually state what their <b>exact</b> problem is with current system, what <b>exactly</b> needs to be changed and why they think it would be much better.  :idea:
Best idea I've heard all day ;)

But then, I"m a math major.  I live on examples :)

Offline Ulciscor

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« Reply #103 on: October 26, 2005, 08:33:45 PM »
I don't recall saying anything was wrong. I don't remember suggesting anything should be changed. Maybe suggestions wasn't the best place for this thread; sorry about that, if people want it moved or deleted then go ahead.
:D Ulciscor :D

I used to be indecisive, but now I'm not so sure.

Offline Greven

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« Reply #104 on: October 26, 2005, 08:34:33 PM »
Okay Num is you think I am combative because I say that I have tried to wake you and PY up from your bot sleep, comeon. We both know that I have made this point a million times before, it's no secret. And it were only meant as a metaphor! Well I might be combative, but your are arrogant. That is what I dont respond well to. We have had this one before too.
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