Author Topic: Fluid  (Read 6589 times)

Offline Zelos

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« on: October 19, 2005, 11:34:56 AM »
Life have to be in a fluid to work. And im pretty sure it doesnt need to be water. And that it shall be polirized, like water. How many liquids is like that? I know:
H2O (water)
NH3 (ammoniak)
« Last Edit: October 19, 2005, 11:36:08 AM by Zelos »
When I have the eclipse cannon under my control there is nothing that can stop me from ruling the world. And I wont stop there. I will never stop conquering worlds through the universe. All the worlds in the universe will belong to me. All the species in on them will be my slaves. THE ENIRE UNIVERSE WILL BELONG TO ME AND EVERYTHING IN IT :evil: AND THERE IS NOTHING ANYONE OF you CAN DO TO STOP ME. HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA

Offline shvarz

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« Reply #1 on: October 19, 2005, 12:00:45 PM »
You are not being logical.  Life as we know it depends on water.  If you are talking about "life that we don't know about", then it can be anything, from crystals to ionized plasma...
"Never underestimate the power of stupid things in big numbers" - Serious Sam

Offline Numsgil

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« Reply #2 on: October 19, 2005, 12:44:27 PM »
Let's assume you mean life constructed from bilipid like membranes.

Then yes, the medium would need to be polarized, and the interior of the cell would be, well, not.

But there are alot of assumptuions going into that.  Like:  life is only constructable via lipid-like membranes.

Really I think anything that can replicate and has a clear boundary between self and non-self can eventually become complex enough to be life.

Offline shvarz

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« Reply #3 on: October 19, 2005, 01:00:39 PM »
Well, see - that's the problem.  If you bring in known substances and mechanisms, then you impose the limits of those substances.  I am pretty sure that lipid membranes as we know it cannot exist in pure ammonia.
"Never underestimate the power of stupid things in big numbers" - Serious Sam

Offline Numsgil

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« Reply #4 on: October 19, 2005, 01:05:24 PM »
Probably not, but could something that had similar properties exist in a liquid ammonia environment?

Really a lipid is basically a polar head and a non-polar tail.  So it's not inconcievable that some sort of lipid-like substance could form at the incredibly chilly temperature of liquid ammonia.

Thing is the chemistry of non-standard temperature/pressure is largely unexplored compared to the room temperature stuff (for obvious reasons).

Offline Zelos

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« Reply #5 on: October 19, 2005, 01:18:23 PM »
this is just theoretical. We dont know if it exists or not. I just want possible chemicals that can support life. It dont need to be liquid in rooms temperature. It just need to have a liquid phase at some temperature.

shvarz, I allways keep my self to physic. So this MIGHT be possible. but maybe some life out there have succeded in living in ammoniak
« Last Edit: October 19, 2005, 01:19:12 PM by Zelos »
When I have the eclipse cannon under my control there is nothing that can stop me from ruling the world. And I wont stop there. I will never stop conquering worlds through the universe. All the worlds in the universe will belong to me. All the species in on them will be my slaves. THE ENIRE UNIVERSE WILL BELONG TO ME AND EVERYTHING IN IT :evil: AND THERE IS NOTHING ANYONE OF you CAN DO TO STOP ME. HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA

Offline Numsgil

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« Reply #6 on: October 19, 2005, 02:25:31 PM »
I think you're right Zelos, liquid ammonia is polar, so it theoretically could support some sort of life similar in structure to ours.

This is not true with liquid methane (like on that Saturn moon they reproted had liquid methane recently).

Also, on the other side of the temperature scale, I think they feel that ionic life might be possible.  Things based on ball lightning for instance.  All conjecture of course...  Plasmas, you see, have all sorts of interesting properties.

So some sort of life forms could theoretically evolve on certain suns in their ionosphere.

Offline Zelos

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« Reply #7 on: October 19, 2005, 02:35:53 PM »
now we are getting of subject. Is there anymore polar substances? it must be. is ther any list or can you guys plz tell me those you know?
When I have the eclipse cannon under my control there is nothing that can stop me from ruling the world. And I wont stop there. I will never stop conquering worlds through the universe. All the worlds in the universe will belong to me. All the species in on them will be my slaves. THE ENIRE UNIVERSE WILL BELONG TO ME AND EVERYTHING IN IT :evil: AND THERE IS NOTHING ANYONE OF you CAN DO TO STOP ME. HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA

Offline PurpleYouko

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« Reply #8 on: October 19, 2005, 02:43:17 PM »
Pure alcohol  :wacko:
There are 10 kinds of people in the world

Those who understand binary.

and those who don't

:D PY :D

Offline Zelos

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« Reply #9 on: October 19, 2005, 02:45:18 PM »
of course alcohol. but I think its C5 and down, bigger than that the polar propeties simpl become to small. But im after more less known chemicals.
When I have the eclipse cannon under my control there is nothing that can stop me from ruling the world. And I wont stop there. I will never stop conquering worlds through the universe. All the worlds in the universe will belong to me. All the species in on them will be my slaves. THE ENIRE UNIVERSE WILL BELONG TO ME AND EVERYTHING IN IT :evil: AND THERE IS NOTHING ANYONE OF you CAN DO TO STOP ME. HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA

Offline shvarz

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« Reply #10 on: October 19, 2005, 02:47:29 PM »
This is not true with liquid methane

Well, if you are willing to assume that there may be lipid membranes able to survive in ammonia, then why not assume that there may be membranes that will survive in methane?  Just turn them inside out - polar sides in, hydrophobic sides out :)
"Never underestimate the power of stupid things in big numbers" - Serious Sam

Offline Zelos

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« Reply #11 on: October 19, 2005, 02:52:06 PM »
what does that help? they will wander away cause there is nothing keeping them togather

and shvarz, be mroe open to possibilities. Maybe the alien to visit us/we visit them might be ammonia based and you think "holy shit, you can be based on ammonia"
« Last Edit: October 19, 2005, 02:53:13 PM by Zelos »
When I have the eclipse cannon under my control there is nothing that can stop me from ruling the world. And I wont stop there. I will never stop conquering worlds through the universe. All the worlds in the universe will belong to me. All the species in on them will be my slaves. THE ENIRE UNIVERSE WILL BELONG TO ME AND EVERYTHING IN IT :evil: AND THERE IS NOTHING ANYONE OF you CAN DO TO STOP ME. HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA

Offline shvarz

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« Reply #12 on: October 19, 2005, 03:30:30 PM »
No-no, I am fully open to ammonia-based life.  It is you, who is set on a certain idea - "life requires polarized fluid".

Maybe the alien to visit us/we visit them might be not based on liquid and you think "holy shit, you don't have to be based on liquid"
"Never underestimate the power of stupid things in big numbers" - Serious Sam

Offline shvarz

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« Reply #13 on: October 19, 2005, 03:31:36 PM »
Quote
they will wander away cause there is nothing keeping them togather

Of course there is - same forces that keep lipids together in water.  Exactly the same.
"Never underestimate the power of stupid things in big numbers" - Serious Sam

Offline Numsgil

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« Reply #14 on: October 19, 2005, 03:37:34 PM »
Quote
This is not true with liquid methane

Well, if you are willing to assume that there may be lipid membranes able to survive in ammonia, then why not assume that there may be membranes that will survive in methane?  Just turn them inside out - polar sides in, hydrophobic sides out :)
I won't pretend to be more than a passing ameteur at this, but that actually sounds plausible to me.