Author Topic: Fluid  (Read 6591 times)

Offline Endy

  • Bot Overlord
  • ****
  • Posts: 852
    • View Profile
Fluid
« Reply #30 on: October 22, 2005, 04:06:09 AM »
Quote
About the only thing it doesn't destroy is Zircon crystals

These weird things again, seems like talk about them is everywhere. I ran into an article recently about their stability and use as "time capsuls" to tell about ancient times on earth.

Offline PurpleYouko

  • Bot God
  • *****
  • Posts: 2554
    • View Profile
    • http://kuro-tejina.com
Fluid
« Reply #31 on: October 22, 2005, 01:07:45 PM »
Zircon crystals can be used in two different ways to date rocks that contain them The first works and confirms an old earth

The second is a load of old bollox perpetrated by Young Earth Creationists. It has bee thouroughly debunked by real scientists.

The science of this is that when Zircons form in cooling magma, their chemistry strongly rejects the inclusion of Lead atoms while simultaneously favoring the inclusion of Uranium atoms. No atoms of either can ever get in or out of the crystal once it has formed.

Method 1.
Many years later it is possible to measure the ratio of you/Pb, then by applying the known half life of Uranium, you can date the crystal.

Method 2.
During radiactive decay, Uranium undergoes fission which releases an alpha particle (which is basically a helium nucleus). This soon grabs up a few avalable electrons (which are able to freely enter the zircon) to become helium.
By measuring the concentration of He in the zircons, YECs have (wrongly) concluded that there isn't enough there for the Uranium to have been decaying for more than a few thousand years.
Their mistake?
Helium is so small in atomic cross section that it is able to freely travel in and out of the zircons and the surrounding rock so its concentration in the zircons is completely and utterly irrelevent.
They still use this pseudo science to push their religious agendas regardless of the fact that if they are truly scientists then they know beyond a shadow of a doubt that they are dead wrong.

To some people faith just trumps science, no matter how strong the evidence is.   :blink:
« Last Edit: October 22, 2005, 01:08:48 PM by PurpleYouko »
There are 10 kinds of people in the world

Those who understand binary.

and those who don't

:D PY :D

Offline Numsgil

  • Administrator
  • Bot God
  • *****
  • Posts: 7718
    • View Profile
Fluid
« Reply #32 on: October 22, 2005, 01:46:03 PM »
What is Zircon?  Is it an element?  It doesn't really ring a bell in my mind...

Offline Griz

  • Bot Overlord
  • ****
  • Posts: 608
    • View Profile
    • http://community.webshots.com/user/objack2
Fluid
« Reply #33 on: October 22, 2005, 03:28:44 PM »
Quote
To some people faith just trumps science, no matter how strong the evidence is.
indeed.
we tend to find what we look for ...
whether or not we are aware of our perconceptions/assumptions.
the reason for blind/doubleblind studies.

PY ... are you a chemist and/or physics guy?
I was trained by the navy as a nuclear reactor operator ...
and have been working in nuke instumentation and control systems
for the last 32 years ... more the electronic side of it now days ...
so rarely use all that theory we were taught ...
well ... that includes electronic/transistor theory as well ...
who works on the compnent level anymore? ...
now it's isolate the problem to a chip or board and swap it out. ;)
and you know how it goes ... use it or lose it.

so I enjoy your sojourns into chem and physics.
不知
~griz~
[/color]
   "The selection of Random Numbers is too important to be left to Chance"
The Mooj  a friend to all humanity
[/color]

Offline Brwagur

  • Bot Neophyte
  • *
  • Posts: 3
    • View Profile
Fluid
« Reply #34 on: March 02, 2007, 06:13:01 PM »
This is the best list I have found:

HF,NH3, HCl, HBr, HI, OF2, SeCl2, SCl2,PCl3, SO2, Ch3Cl, CH3Br, SeCl, CHCl3, CO(CH3)2, H2S,CH3Cl, KBr & H20(ion-dipole forces), H2O2, CH3OH(methanol),CH3COOH(acetic acid) , CH3NH2 methy amine, C2H5Oh ethyl alcohol, (C6H12O6 glucose), CH3CH2OH ethanol, 1- propanol CH3Ch2CH2OH, 2-propanol CH2CH2OHCH3, 1-butanol CH3CH2CH2CH2OH , acetone (CH3)2CO, H3O+, H202, CH20

Most of these are too large to plausible

Offline Peter

  • Bot God
  • *****
  • Posts: 1177
    • View Profile
Fluid
« Reply #35 on: July 03, 2007, 05:25:03 PM »
Quote
QUOTE (shvarz @ Oct 19 2005, 01:47 PM)
This is not true with liquid methane

Well, if you are willing to assume that there may be lipid membranes able to survive in ammonia, then why not assume that there may be membranes that will survive in methane? Just turn them inside out - polar sides in, hydrophobic sides out  


I won't pretend to be more than a passing ameteur at this, but that actually sounds plausible to me.

I am reading this, and for some reason I seem to mis some posts,but yes this is said by someone who hasn't got a clue about the buidup of a mulecule,  turn them inside out, what are you talking about. Methane is a carbon atom with 4 hydrox-atoms around it. To say it in simple chemisty carbon with 4 connections is connecting the 4 four hydrox-atoms, how do you want to turn the atomb around and the carbon on te outside and keeping it connected with the hydrox.(I am not sure if the atom H is being said with hydrox in english, but I now it's close and you undstand me.

The reason methane is non-polair is simply becouse, well say it with pictures. That did;nt work let's crete it.
____H____
__H-C-H__
____H____

Here there is on every side an hydrogen, becouse the hydrogen is on every side any charge(+) from the hydrogen is neutralised. Cousing it to be non-polair.
___O(-)__
__/__\___
_H(+)H___

Becouse there is an angle between the hydrox and the oxyen the charge(is this even the correct word) is not being fully neutralised and it is polair.


Quote
This is the best list I have found:

HF,NH3, HCl, HBr, HI, OF2, SeCl2, SCl2,PCl3, SO2, Ch3Cl, CH3Br, SeCl, CHCl3, CO(CH3)2, H2S,CH3Cl, KBr & H20(ion-dipole forces), H2O2, CH3OH(methanol),CH3COOH(acetic acid) , CH3NH2 methy amine, C2H5Oh ethyl alcohol, (C6H12O6 glucose), CH3CH2OH ethanol, 1- propanol CH3Ch2CH2OH, 2-propanol CH2CH2OHCH3, 1-butanol CH3CH2CH2CH2OH , acetone (CH3)2CO, H3O+, H202, CH20

Most of these are too large to plausible

I can even make some up, even without nowing they exist. Well these exist I you you have got 1-propanol and 1-butanol, 2-propanol and 2-butanol exist too, so does 1-propanal and 1-butanal exist and 2-propanal(oh you've got acetone already)and 2-butanal. I gues they are looking at fluid's that could be used for living on other planets. In fact you can say there anything, why in fact does it has to be polair. You have to look at the elements that exist at the planet. For one hydrox, exist everywhere in the universe further we exist mostly out of carbon, oxyen. Like most of the polair's you found. Other close elsements would be sulfur,nitrogen, fosfor and silica. There could really be everything used, if something could be used you're just guesing.

Like anybody is going to post on this anymore.

   I have got the last post, I have got the last post.
Oh my god, who the hell cares.

Offline Numsgil

  • Administrator
  • Bot God
  • *****
  • Posts: 7718
    • View Profile
Fluid
« Reply #36 on: July 03, 2007, 11:01:10 PM »
Quote from: Peter
I am reading this, and for some reason I seem to mis some posts,but yes this is said by someone who hasn't got a clue about the buidup of a mulecule,  turn them inside out, what are you talking about. Methane is a carbon atom with 4 hydrox-atoms around it. To say it in simple chemisty carbon with 4 connections is connecting the 4 four hydrox-atoms, how do you want to turn the atomb around and the carbon on te outside and keeping it connected with the hydrox.(I am not sure if the atom H is being said with hydrox in english, but I now it's close and you undstand me.

We're not saying that you turn the molecule inside out.  We're saying that you reverse the usual thinking about how lipids (fats) form membranes.  In a non polar fluid, your lipids (one end polar, the other non polar) would have their non polar tails sticking outward into the fluid with their heads sticking "inwards" forming the membrane, which is reverse of how they work in a polar fluid like water.

Check out this site.  The round balls are the polar "heads".  The squiggly lines are the non polar "tails".  These "bilipid" membranes are the building block of life because they help seperate things that are in the cell from things that are not in the cell.

If you reversed them, and had their heads connect instead of their tails, you might be able to construct life in a non polar fluid.  Maybe.  Anyway it's as plausible as anything else I've heard.  And would allow life to form in methane seas, which are not unheard of in our own solar system.

Quote
Other close elsements would be sulfur,nitrogen, fosfor and silica. There could really be everything used, if something could be used you're just guesing.

The problem as you climb down the periodic table is two fold:

1.  These chemicals are scarcer, and so it's hard to believe that life would use them over their more prolific cousins.
2.  Mass: Amino acids on up would all be considerably heavier.  It would be more difficult to ingest and expel them.

Quote
 I have got the last post, I have got the last post.


Offline cliftut

  • Bot Neophyte
  • *
  • Posts: 22
    • View Profile
Fluid
« Reply #37 on: August 06, 2007, 04:19:00 AM »
I don't have a ton of technical knowledge concerning this stuff, and I haven't read all of the posts, but I thought I ought to mention this.

I read somewhere, probably a science magazine, that scientists found single-celled organisms living fairly deep underground between rocks. Not only were they living in this environment where it was thought life couldn't live, but to do so, they were feeding on methane. Their were able to metabolize the methane and use it for energy. If I remember correctly, they were actually using the methane in place of oxygen because oxygen is rare at those depths. I can't remember all of it, though, so I could be wrong.

So an organism probably could live in a methane rich environment as long as there were enough of other substances for it to live.

If anyone knows anything about these organisms, correct me or elaborate upon this. It's not exactly what you were talking about, but I think it's related.
I want these graphs to look superb. ...
I want these graphs to be scalable. ...
I want these to be the smoothest, most user friendly aspect of the program. I want people to marvel at our superb graphs.
             -Numsgil, motivational speaker at work. ;)