Author Topic: ROSE is dead!  (Read 9879 times)

Offline Botsareus

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« Reply #15 on: September 04, 2005, 10:18:47 AM »
IC
interesting idea, I wont mind playing it , as long as its not all about trading. I seen some games all people do is go to item menus and buy or sell or exchange stuff, I can sit all day move folders arround on my C drive too. :P

still:

5-7 people , no common chat system , no 20 people doing a group attack on 2 people piloting an ZeroSystem sourt of like thing. No systematic killing of every player in the whole matrix , nah, not exsactly my style for a mmo. Waiting until StarTrack Online comes out.

P.S.

You know the StarWars3 opening fight seine, now thats what I am talking about.

P.P.S

The complexity of it all so intance that I beat by the time I am done the avrage computer will be fast enough to handle it. Doom3 kind of messed up on that part.

For now I got first Bot to evolve , and get everything possible out of my collage  Reasoning class. If we can get a unifyed model will have android datah in no time, running on 1.x or 2.x hrtz prossesor. , Reminds me Sunday it is , time to go finish off smbot for a ping pong game as an away project.

Offline PurpleYouko

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« Reply #16 on: September 04, 2005, 11:01:48 AM »
I still prefer the massive idea really but running in minimal with a few friends on a local server would be a great way to playtest it.

As for the total open endedness and the persistent world, That is exactly what I plan. Monsters spawning all over the place with no rhyme or reason is just not realistic. better that they have a lair (which can be pretty well defended) that spews them out into the surrounding world. At some point some of these monsters can set up a new lair somewhere else and start making new baby ones again.

I really want the players to be able to have an impact on the world. I also want dynamically changing quests, some of which may be based on other players. Imagine a player becomes a criminal like a Pirate or something. Later, other players could be given a quest to go and capture "Plaer A" the pirate. Ie. players can get a price on their heads.
I want players to be able to have registered property (plots of land) which can be traded, built on etc. Landlords and rent become possible. Someone might become a King and demand taxes. Who knows.

This is going to be cool B) (rubs hands together in glee)

I have some interesting new ideas to stop hacking too.
First/ the server will be literally a giant database (SQL or similar) with no inherent software at all.
Second/ The real work is done by a piece of software housed locally on the server PC that has access to the database but no direct connection to the internet (so not easily hackable) Through this program we access a second "mirror" database which contains a copy of the first. This can be used to restore the primary database if it gets hacked, possibly automatically.
Third/ Client PCs will send their queries to the database with a dynamically changing password and the server will log change requests and passwords. If the SQL server is changed at any time (via hacking) without having the correct password logged then this will trigger the database to automatically upload the backup data from the mirror database.

Can anyone see any problems here? I think I have a more or less hack proof (actually automatically self repairable) server in mind. of course this is my first foray into anti-hack so I could be missing something obvious.
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Offline Numsgil

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« Reply #17 on: September 04, 2005, 05:57:36 PM »
I never studied much into making something hacker proof.  Basically, if there's any difference between what the player's computer knows, and what they know, that's one level of hacking possible.  This level is almost impossible to detect.

Then there's the player's computer sending erroneous information to the server.  This is easily avoided by enforcing the database to be self-consistant.  I'd put packet interception here too.  Anything where the player is modifying the communication between client and server without using the client.

Then there's the level where hackers aren't even using the client anymore, and are directly logging into the database and altering values.  This is also the most destructive, and the area I've done the least amount of thinking, let alone research.

I have never liked the massive part of the MMO.  I'll admit it's probably the selling point for most other people, but I absolutely detest being an anonymous no one in a game.  If I wanted to be an anonymous no one, I'd play my real life.  :D

Here's my list of things I'd want in a perfect MMO:

1.  No spawning of anything.  All items, monsters, etc. are in a closed system.  Monsters must be born from another monster.  Items must be crafted by someone or something.  Ore must run out eventually and permanently.  Merchants that run out of lychestra blue cannot sell lycestra blue untill they get some more from either an NPC or PC.  "Ruined" crafting materials must turn into something else.  Burned down forests must not regrow if there aren't any seeds to regrow from.  Speaking of which, even trees must grow from seeds, and eventually die themselves.

It is a simple enough request, harder in the implementation, especially in trying to balance the game in a massive world so one player can't ruin the experience for everyone else.  Which is why I'd propose not balancing the game, and letting people be griefers if they want.  Let them destroy the world if they want.

2.  Everyman a place to live, and solitude.  Every PC needs a "home" they can go to.  Other people need to be able to follow them to their home, and random strangers need to be able to stumble upon this PCs home.

Anyway, that rule applies to the plot of land.  As part of #1, houses must be built from lumber and steel.  That's not an easy amount of work, and takes time and/or money.

3.  Everyman a Hero or villain, ie: no enforced anonymity.  Every PC in the world has a part to play.  Not even a side kick part, but an active part.  I don't mean letting PCs fight in wars, I mean the PCs are declaring wars.  Web games are better at this than other types.

If I'm a griefer and want to destroy the known world, I should be theoretically able to.  It shouldn't even be terribly impossible.

A subset of this is that the game developers have no absolute control over the course of the game.  Nor should they try.  Two sides are battling?  Good.  One side is almost totally destroyed?  Fine.  Don't interfere.  The world has run out of trees?  It's some sort of Easter Island Apocalypse?  Too bad, so sad, that's what you get.  Plant a truffla tree.

That's not to say the DMs can't interfere, just that they shouldn't try to guide the course of the game if the players want to go another way.  Don't artificially try to balance things.  Some things are more powerful than others.  It's just how things are.

In essence: No T-Rex's in the field.  (If that reference passed over you, then you must not be as nerdy as I :P)

Another subset of this is that a player can play a no one if they want.  Let them take over an NPCs job.  It's sometimes relaxing to play a farmer and farm some food.

From these three rules I'd like to see a game be made.  They're simple enough, but how to accomplish them?  There are alot of problems.

What if the players absolutely destroy the world?  Reset the server and let them do it again?  Give them the tools to rebuild?

What happens if you get too popular?  Are we really going to have room in our world for 50 heroes?  Too many special people and no one's special.

I think you see the point.

Offline Botsareus

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« Reply #18 on: September 05, 2005, 10:30:25 AM »
Sounds good.



Whats the point of hacking a SQL server , were all it does is assign people to there games, I dont see people getting any major cheats out of this other then to potentialy distroy the server. Thats unless you are doing all the ingame communications not Pair-to-Pair but Pair-to-Server-to-Pair.

Offline Numsgil

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« Reply #19 on: September 05, 2005, 11:28:14 AM »
That's Peer.  As in friend.  Not pair as in fruit (:lol: :P)
« Last Edit: September 05, 2005, 11:28:26 AM by Numsgil »

Offline PurpleYouko

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« Reply #20 on: September 05, 2005, 02:45:27 PM »
Yup you got it. Totally open ended.

Dig a whole and it stays there as part of the permanent persistent world.
Kill the last remaining Orc and go down in history as the person who finished them off once and for all. There will never be another Orc in the world... ever.
Chop down a tree and you get resources to build your house. The tree is gone forever and for everybody.
Plant a new tree seed and it wil grow over time to become a new tree. (I would make this a much speeded up process so that it will be decent sized in less than a year)
You could make it your personal mission to go around shaking trees to get seeds then planting them all over the place.  :D

Players should be able to become bounty hunters, notorius outlaws, pirates or whatever they like.

The main thing I don't like about games like "Guild Wars" is that there is a central story line which is exactly the same for every player. They move from chapter to chapter and each have to perform identical quests to progress.
I want quests to be dynamic (possibly DM assigned) so that a quest to bring in a notorious robber barron dead or alive is fulfilled when he is brought in. Nobody else can then do it because there was only ever ONE robber baron or Pirate or whatever.
Maybe this Robber Baron could even be a PC so that his reputation grows within the game world.

The way I see the SQL server working is that it will contain pretty much every bit of data about the world and everyone in it. All your PC will have to do is to read and write to the server then turn that data into graphical output.
Every piece of information going to the server can be accompanied by a dynamically changing authentication code so it will be pretty easy to tell if someone hacks the server directly. No accompanying code. Then a monitoring program running on the server PC can just reset any hacked information within seconds of it being changed.

Keeping track of the world should not be too hard. Although the primary graphic files can be part of the player's initial download, a layer of trees, houses and other stuff can be stored on a database in the server and will be downloaded whenever a player goes into a new area.
A simple manager program can also be run on the server computer so that new trees will spontaineously grow near to other adult trees. Same with monster lairs. An Orc lair will make new baby Orcs at a rate proportional to the number of adult female Orcs in the lair (Only takes one male). Kill 'em all and that lair is history.
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Offline Numsgil

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« Reply #21 on: September 05, 2005, 04:01:03 PM »
I agree with pretty much everything.  I think online games where you have GM/DMs actively DMing would be so cool.  You only need like 1 DM for every 10 players or so to get some really intricate playability.

More than that even, you should be able to set it up so that players can interact with the world and each other that you entirely get rid of the idea of developer run worlds.

On the most basic level, allow players to interact and establish contracts, etc.  Allow them whatever powers they want.

For instance, start the world off with no towns or any signs of civilization.  Then give the people the tools to build up civilization.  People could band together and create a jail, where subdued outlaws could be brought to.  Markets could be formed.  Give the players the means to assign NPCs to a certain task.  One NPC could simply pilot a barge up and down a large river, embarking at certain times.  Another could simply guard the barge against outlaws.

All the sorts of tasks that are mindless and boring.

Then the players could be like robber barons and pull all the strings.  Trade the NPC contracts.  Etc.

There are two paradigms to hacker prevention:

1.  Stop people from hacking
2.  Don't

Now, the 1st has been fairly well explored, and it requires a server with quite a bit of bandwidth.

Less explored is the second idea.  Assume that no one will hack the server.  What kind of things can you do now?  Well, you can start with distributed computing.  Use the players' computers to do most of the processing.

There are some other possibilities.  I think you could get more detailed games going.  Have 1000 players on at a time?  Great, you have 1000 computers to process for you.  The more players on a server the less lag you experience.

Obviously the problem then is when people do hack.  Since it'd be so easy.  I see a few routes here:

1.  Try and steer computational packets towards computers where the results don't effect that player.

That is, if player A and B are in a duel, computer C is doing the calculations for it.  This of course depends a great deal on how good the server can tell the consequences of an action.

2.  Don't worry about it.  This will mean hackers will get the upper hand.  The way to solve this is to allow players to be banned by other players, and players to go off and form their own public/private server, etc.

Also, since packets are divied up randomly, you could do it so that the player has no way to know what is being calculated.  For instance, what does 7-5 mean to the player?  If the computational packets are abstract enough, hacking could be quite difficult.

I'd prefer option 2 because it's never been explored.  Peer to peer MMO.  Its compexity could increase logarithmically as you get more people.  In general, P2P is a fascinating paradigm.  They're already using it to calculate prime numbers.

The server would do little more than allow computers to connect to each other.  If done right, the packets would be sent where they need to go...  Ah, the computational chaos!  Mwhahaha...

*goes to research distributed computing*...

Offline Botsareus

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« Reply #22 on: September 05, 2005, 08:23:56 PM »
The idea is , if a player hacks another player , the other player will complain and report to the server, the server will trow the affender off. If a player hacked a server then the game abservers (people reseaving reports) wont see it.

 :blink: ... I realise it does not make any sense now...

The idea is to abserve the data exchange from third person, but then the third person's can be hacked as well so it does not make sense.

P.S.

I leave you guys to your own discussion because I realise I got a lot to learn before I can be anywere close to your level.
« Last Edit: September 05, 2005, 08:27:39 PM by Botsareus »

Offline Endy

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« Reply #23 on: September 05, 2005, 10:27:23 PM »
What about a method "in game" to save the world? Some sort of ultimate item that returns the world to a past setting. This way if anyone ever does destroy everything there's at least a chance to save it(I can just imagine the quest for this :) ). Hiking across the wastelands in search of the ultimate item, battling the armies of darkness along the way B) Although such an item would be just as useful to keep control also... :)

It might be an idea for the enviroment to affect players in a more injurous way, if a player is in a rocky area for example there could be an increased chance of injury. This way the monster habitats would make more sense and give monsters some measure of protection.

Offline Numsgil

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« Reply #24 on: September 05, 2005, 10:29:01 PM »
I found a cool thread on this sort of thing here.

Basically, the idea that P2P networks are suseptable to malicous attacks has been noticed, and solutions exist to solve them.  Notably, all these solutions fail if more than 1/3 of the users are malicous.

The most basic way is redundancy checks.  Have the same packet computed several times by different computers.  If one computer is different from the concensus, then you blacklist it, and it doesn't get or recieve packets from other computers.  In effect, they're shut out of the network.

Theoretically, it would be possible for a netsplit to occur, where half the network blacklists the other half.  Which would be like a parallel universe forming, which sounds neat, but not when half the players go with it.

I'm going to see if I can make a seriosuly simple game and try out some of this distributed programming things on it.

Offline Numsgil

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« Reply #25 on: September 05, 2005, 11:06:55 PM »
http://solipsis.netofpeers.net/wiki/HomePage

I believe it's an open source, free, peermog.

Offline Numsgil

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« Reply #26 on: September 05, 2005, 11:09:21 PM »
Quote
What about a method "in game" to save the world? Some sort of ultimate item that returns the world to a past setting. This way if anyone ever does destroy everything there's at least a chance to save it(I can just imagine the quest for this :) ). Hiking across the wastelands in search of the ultimate item, battling the armies of darkness along the way B) Although such an item would be just as useful to keep control also... :)

It might be an idea for the enviroment to affect players in a more injurous way, if a player is in a rocky area for example there could be an increased chance of injury. This way the monster habitats would make more sense and give monsters some measure of protection.
Such an item would need to be *extrememely* difficult to find and keep.  In the real world, it is always easier to destroy something than make it.  I think the same should be true of virutal worlds.

If someone(s) destroys the eco system of the planet, they should be forced to *live* with the consequences of their decision for several months *real time*.

Offline Endy

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« Reply #27 on: September 05, 2005, 11:32:18 PM »
Yeah, I was thinking it would be at the "end of the world" so to speak and possibly only come to exist when the enviroment is seriously affected, it'd be located in some extremly difficult area to find and reach. It could also be defended by monsters of some sort.

Once removed it could require a physical guard at all times or it would revert to it's original location. This would necessitate any evil leader to have trusted men stationed nearby at all times, since you can never be too sure of someone slipping into your ranks or a guard getting bored :)  it would be hard to maintain the stranglehold over everyone.

Offline Greven

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« Reply #28 on: September 06, 2005, 03:30:41 PM »
What Num is saying make perfectly sense.
This also opens up for the possiblity that players unite against eco-destroyers etc. Making eco-police patrols etc. ;) This would be extremely funny, Eco vs anti-eco, something like LoTR, good vs. pure evil.
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Offline Greven

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« Reply #29 on: September 06, 2005, 03:40:34 PM »
But a nice little Item that restores the world as it was, is NOT my cup of tea... It seems pretty silly, maybe some kind of extremely rare spells (say 10) should be used, where only one spell could be used by an extremely (yet again) POWERFUL wizard. Thuse the world need to emptied for the 10 most powerfull wizards and the 10 spells needs to be researched, found whatever. But still this seems rather silly.

The idea behind the "limited world", is nice and should open up for much more possiblities than the "unlimited worlds" give.

No one what a month or more (in realtime, maybe incl. money spent)  wasted just like that, because some people suddenly whats to destroy the world (and such people always exists, and I really dont know why), people will band together (I will bet on it, if there is enough players) and try to save atleast a small fraction in the world, either becuase they dont what to reset the world, or they just what the fun in combatting others and have a reason for it or maybe they just think in pure money (game money), and knows if they control the last bit of fine forest, they are going to get unbeliveable rich..... (and will control the entire world, hahahha)
« Last Edit: September 06, 2005, 03:43:21 PM by Greven »
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