Author Topic: Theoratical  (Read 5154 times)

Offline Botsareus

  • Society makes it all backwards - there is a good reason for that
  • Bot God
  • *****
  • Posts: 4483
    • View Profile
Theoratical
« on: September 07, 2005, 05:59:50 PM »
Well currently the program mesures how mutch "working" dna it has per gene. I.e. charging the robot costs for it.

You can also see how mutch dna total is in a gene its a really simple math, currently even the program tells you how mutch total dna a robot has.

Now all you need is take an avrage junk free robot, see how mutch dna on avrage a gene has, and see how mutch on avrage a gene cousts. Lets call the cost per 1 dna item n so if the resolting coust is 30 , and the ammount of dna it has is 6 then n = 30 /6 = 5

Now the formula for the cost of junk dna per gene is  [span style=\'font-size:21pt;line-height:100%\']([span style=\'font-size:8pt;line-height:100%\'] actual cost of the robot to execute gene[/span])  - ([span style=\'font-size:8pt;line-height:100%\']total dna in gene[/span])n[/span]

Qustions? comments? , PY saying calculating junk dna impossible? (for presise calculations I must agree...)
« Last Edit: September 07, 2005, 06:04:00 PM by Botsareus »

Offline Botsareus

  • Society makes it all backwards - there is a good reason for that
  • Bot God
  • *****
  • Posts: 4483
    • View Profile
Theoratical
« Reply #1 on: September 07, 2005, 06:05:12 PM »
The actual ammount of junk dna is then =  (total cost of junk dna) / n

[Edit: Divided by n , sry for any confusion :D]
« Last Edit: September 07, 2005, 07:31:05 PM by Botsareus »

Offline shvarz

  • Bot God
  • *****
  • Posts: 1341
    • View Profile
Theoratical
« Reply #2 on: September 08, 2005, 12:17:43 AM »
In order for that to work you must have an evolved robot without junk DNA, because coding the same thing takes many more commands in evolved bots than in manually-coded bots.  

Also, your calculations would charge "one-gene" bots an unfair amount - the length of their gene is much longer than "average", but it is all working.
"Never underestimate the power of stupid things in big numbers" - Serious Sam

Offline Botsareus

  • Society makes it all backwards - there is a good reason for that
  • Bot God
  • *****
  • Posts: 4483
    • View Profile
Theoratical
« Reply #3 on: September 08, 2005, 01:49:10 PM »
Well no , because you look at the length of the gene first.

And abviosly you need to have a junky robot to test it on, you cant just sit there write junk dna yourself.

Offline Numsgil

  • Administrator
  • Bot God
  • *****
  • Posts: 7742
    • View Profile
Theoratical
« Reply #4 on: September 08, 2005, 02:20:35 PM »
Why does it even matter?  Junk DNA by defintinion isn't doing anything bad.

Offline Greven

  • Bot Destroyer
  • ***
  • Posts: 345
    • View Profile
Theoratical
« Reply #5 on: September 08, 2005, 02:52:58 PM »
and the question is: How do you (we) define what junk DNA is?

In the current way DB bots evolve it will sometimes be very difficult to extract the pure DNA without junk....
10010011000001110111110100111011001101100100000110110111000011101011110010110000
011000011000001100010110010111101001110100110010111100101000001000001111001011101
001101001110011011010011100011110100111000011101100100000100110011010011100110110
010110000011100111101001110110111101011101100110000111101001101001110111111011101
01100100000111010011010001100001110111010000010001001000010100001

Offline PurpleYouko

  • Bot God
  • *****
  • Posts: 2556
    • View Profile
Theoratical
« Reply #6 on: September 08, 2005, 03:42:38 PM »
Or to put it another way

[span style=\'font-size:14pt;line-height:100%\']WHO CARES?[/span]
There are 10 kinds of people in the world
Those who understand binary.
and those who don't

:D PY :D

Offline Botsareus

  • Society makes it all backwards - there is a good reason for that
  • Bot God
  • *****
  • Posts: 4483
    • View Profile
Theoratical
« Reply #7 on: September 08, 2005, 03:51:06 PM »
Quote
In order for that to work you must have an evolved robot without junk DNA, because coding the same thing takes many more commands in evolved bots than in manually-coded bots.

I am evolving robots right now shvartz, using a take from the way you evolve bots , with a few mods... ITS ALL IN THE "shvartz help me out thread" (witch is kinda dead right now exsept for my occasional posts sometimes)

That reminds me , I resantly changed the system to be more user frandly, now it favors bots that take up less cpu time, Before it favored more cpu time because the timer was not synchronized with the simulation , and this a reword timer so imagine what was going on with with slower cycles. Although it is still not sensitive to slow down dew to high populations - thats the beauty of the system:

Quote
' calls main form status bar update , bau sayes: also tweacks auto save to work at the rate of the simulation favoring faster executing robots
Public Sub cyccaption(ByVal num As Single)
Dim enterval As Long
If num > 0 Then
enterval = 30000 / num * 40 / totnvegs '<------ :D
If enterval > 65535 Then enterval = 65535
Timer2.Interval = enterval 'Auto Save , Auto Reword timer
End If
  MDIForm1.infos num, totalrobots, totnvegs, totvegs, SimOpts.TotBorn, SimOpts.TotRunCycle, SimOpts.TotRunTime
End Sub



The qustion indeed is: How do (we) define junk dna , thats one of the reasons I "invented" it to check by gene and not by the whole dna, here is a few examples:

cond
5 .eye5 >
5 .eye5 > 'duplicate still costs
start
'...

'or

cond
start
5 .up store
stop
cond
start
5 .aimdx store
stop

'instead of

cond
start
5 .up store
5 .aimdx store
stop

So I desided to scrap doing any calculations for gene definitions at all. (Hence , it works per gene and only takes the code after start)



Anyway Num is right currently this thread is uselss. The only reason I posted it in the "off topic" board is incase I or someone will need it in the future. (I know I needed it at one point and did not know how to properly write the equation)
« Last Edit: September 08, 2005, 03:52:39 PM by Botsareus »

Offline Botsareus

  • Society makes it all backwards - there is a good reason for that
  • Bot God
  • *****
  • Posts: 4483
    • View Profile
Theoratical
« Reply #8 on: September 08, 2005, 04:11:00 PM »
( Warning:  :rant: )

PY quote:
Quote
Or to put it another way

WHO CARES?

(CosmicRift dead) Moose quote:
Quote
I dont mean to be mean ... but Terminator ... Yankee or noone is gonna take your ideas ... :/ Im sorry. But you need to stop making them ... and do something else ... Sorry ... Im sorta doing this for you ..

I just feel like everywere I go people are going to say this...
Please tell me thats not true for this fourm, I gess its the only place I got left
Considering that collage is trying to brainwash me that I am not too sure about my major... and since I am in the seek program I grad in 5 years not 4 , and considering I took a year of to experiment with ai cosepts (including DB) that makes it six years...

As far as the classes they are giving me , I beat my english is getting worse every time I take there class. How would you like to be brain washed that a summory must have a "who" , "what" and a "thesis" and I must use "tranistional words" I swear if she knew how mutch I had to summorise in my head to post here , I would of been in english2 already.

Num here is one for you, they make me do this for math:
Quote
Plot: (3,4]

or

(simplify)
(x^3+2)+(x^2+x) = x^3+x^2+x+2 DUHHHHHHHHHHH!! 

( Warning:  :rant: )

Offline PurpleYouko

  • Bot God
  • *****
  • Posts: 2556
    • View Profile
Theoratical
« Reply #9 on: September 08, 2005, 04:26:44 PM »
I just don't see what your beef is with Junk DNA.

It is all just DNA anyway. Besides which how can you even tell when it is junk and when it isn't?
What possible difference can it make if we charge for it or not?
Why would we want to even bother?
It is just a meaningless and pointless exercise IMO.

Don't take it personally or anything. I just don't plan on wasting my time worrying about it.
There are 10 kinds of people in the world
Those who understand binary.
and those who don't

:D PY :D

Offline Botsareus

  • Society makes it all backwards - there is a good reason for that
  • Bot God
  • *****
  • Posts: 4483
    • View Profile
Theoratical
« Reply #10 on: September 08, 2005, 04:35:58 PM »
ok... fine.

Offline Numsgil

  • Administrator
  • Bot God
  • *****
  • Posts: 7742
    • View Profile
Theoratical
« Reply #11 on: September 08, 2005, 06:47:12 PM »
Assuming you really hate it, the best solution is to just add a costs field for nrg/basepair/cycle, or soemthing like that.

Let evolution decide what's junk and what's not.

Your problem Bots is, as I keep saying, you keep trying to fix things that aren't necessarily broken.  Now, with all that isn't what it could be in the program, why not concentrate on areas that could be improved and make sense to do so?

[hint]Like graphs[/hint].  Or you could integrate the damn tie forces for me.  Ugh.
« Last Edit: September 08, 2005, 06:48:50 PM by Numsgil »

Offline Botsareus

  • Society makes it all backwards - there is a good reason for that
  • Bot God
  • *****
  • Posts: 4483
    • View Profile
Theoratical
« Reply #12 on: September 08, 2005, 08:48:58 PM »
Quote
Or you could integrate the damn tie forces for me. Ugh.


[span style=\'font-size:14pt;line-height:100%\']ok how do you want swimming done?[/span] any others like swimming, gravity , combinations of fources = sounds like a fun challange.

[hint] graphs = too long to test , boaring as calcules if not more, c.) calcules = BOARING, still possible to evantualy get me to do it if my mood and the timing is right, good luck [/hint]

Offline Numsgil

  • Administrator
  • Bot God
  • *****
  • Posts: 7742
    • View Profile
Theoratical
« Reply #13 on: September 09, 2005, 09:30:42 AM »
I'll post it this afternoon.  It's actually an interesting problem.  Just damn near impossible.  Ugh.

:ph43r:
« Last Edit: September 15, 2005, 02:15:09 PM by Numsgil »