Author Topic: Photosynthesis  (Read 7206 times)

Offline Anonomous Guest Person

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Photosynthesis
« on: February 23, 2005, 10:39:19 AM »
(We need longer topic descriptions.)

Ahem.

Photosynthesis would be a method of spending some energy, to get some energy back for converting things.
You could have to specifically choose what you're going to convert, or maybe not.

(By converting things, I mean converting body, waste, or anything else that can be turned into energy.)

Before I go on, I assume that converting something into energy would cost a number of energy equal to the amount you're converting. (10 body into energy would cost 10 energy.) (As another assumption, unless you're converting waste (which will generate plenty of permanent waste for you), you should gain this much in waste as well.)
But with this method, you can, provided you receive enough sunlight, expend even less energy.
To use photosynthesis, you'd basically set a variable called .photo.
This would be deleted after use. I'm not sure how this would work programming-wise, but it might require the use of a variable in which conversion costs would be added to this, and then later on in the cycle, it would be taken from .photo and then from energy.
Of course, you don't simply gain the energy you put in .photo.
Actually, the program'll read the value stored in .photo, and take this much energy from you.
Only afterwards would it limit it to (Body/50) or something like that.
After THAT, it would then be multiplied by how much light you're receiving (or something.)
Of course, rather then strength, once multiple types of energy storage are in, it would use a size-type number. (That way bigger bots can photosynthesis better, while smaller bots can fight better.)


If I'm wrong about photosynthesis, please tell me. But as far as I know, this is the basis of how it works. (And we shouldn't make DarwinBots TOO complicated. :P )

Offline Numsgil

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Photosynthesis
« Reply #1 on: February 23, 2005, 10:49:06 AM »
Here's how I plan to incorporate photosynthesis.  Tell me if this fits all the criteria.

Each cycle you recieve 'light' into your stomach based on your surface area (size).  At the end of each cycle, all light is removed from your stomach.

Now, all food bits, from carbs to fats, are converted to usable forms by enzymes inside your stomach.  There are roughly 20 enzymes, from shell dissolvers to chloroplasts.  Chloroplasts also 'use up' waste to become more productive.

Chloroplasts convert light energy into nrg.  Once you have enough chloroplasts to convert all the light you recieve in your stomach to energy then you must increase your surface area to recieve more energy per turn from an increase in the number of chloroplasts.
« Last Edit: February 23, 2005, 11:13:01 AM by Numsgil »

Offline PurpleYouko

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Photosynthesis
« Reply #2 on: February 23, 2005, 10:53:07 AM »
Photosynthesis is a process whereby a plant uses energy from sunlight to power a chemical reaction in which it extracts Carbon from Carbon-DiOxide in order to build cellulose for its own structure. Oxygen is produced as a by-product of this process.
It can only be used by plants.

I am in the early stages of working out a DNA based specialization system for DarwinBots in the attempt to blur the line between plants and animals.
Here is a brief outline of it. Many of these thing could change yet.
  • 1  A robot has a total of 5 specialization points which are assigned at the beginning of the robot's life. They are assigned a little like custom variables but are prone to change by mutations.
  • 2  The specialization points define how efficiently a robot is able to gain energy from a given food source. He can choose between Photosynthesis to gain energy from daylight, Chemosynthesis (probably not a real word) to convert energy directly from chemicals in the environment such as Sulfer from a black smoker or feeding on other robots.
  • 2  These specialization points can all be spent on one option or spread between several.
  • 3  The more the robot specializes in one area the more efficient he gets at it
I am also contemplating a similar set of points to specialize in different environments based on temperature, waste and a few others. Plants love waste and can use it as fertilizer. Animals normally get sick around it. Some shrimps and alga can live in boiling water around hydrothermal vents where others would die. Some can handle freezing temperatures at the poles.

 :D  PY  :D
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Offline Anonomous Guest Person

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Photosynthesis
« Reply #3 on: February 23, 2005, 11:05:25 AM »
No offense, PY, but that sounds kinda boring....
It might totally ruin the whole idea of a plant league too.
And what about bots that feed on other bots?
Would they specialize in tie feeding, or shots?

Simply having a specialization system might make programming it easier, but it might make programming less of an aspect in Darwinbots.

And if you don't have tie feeding or -1 shots or -6 shots as specializations, then a bot could specialize in methods of recycling energy, thus making plants redundant.

I think I'd rather have a whole DNA system about such things.
It would complicate things, yes, but I think it'd complicate them in a good way rather then a bad way.

Offline Numsgil

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Photosynthesis
« Reply #4 on: February 23, 2005, 11:20:57 AM »
If you examine real life, maybe an answer will show itself.

Why don't animals have chloroplasts?  Probably because chloroplasts are much less efficient than digesting fats and carbs.  Plants are huge because they need all that surface area to get enough light to make chloroplasts worth it.

This huge mass means movement is difficult, so plants attach themselves to one place, for better or worse.

So what we need to do is make photosynthesis only really worth it if you are huge.  Schvarz had an idea a while ago of having plants swell up something like 10 times the size of regular bots.

Offline PurpleYouko

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Photosynthesis
« Reply #5 on: February 23, 2005, 11:21:12 AM »
Quote
It might totally ruin the whole idea of a plant league too.

 :huh: What idea of a plant league?


Quote
And what about bots that feed on other bots?


You must have missed this bit.

Quote
2 The specialization points define how efficiently a robot is able to gain energy from a given food source. He can choose between Photosynthesis to gain energy from daylight, Chemosynthesis (probably not a real word) to convert energy directly from chemicals in the environment such as Sulfer from a black smoker or feeding on other robots.

Makes no difference if you shoot or tie feed. This is referring to efficiency at metabolizing the food you get back from either.

Have you been following the recent thread in the old Forum where this idea was first discussed?

 :D  PY  :D

PS Boring?  Me?  Obviously he don't know me too well :rolleyes:
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Offline Numsgil

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Photosynthesis
« Reply #6 on: February 23, 2005, 11:24:40 AM »
PY, what about the enzyme idea I had above?  Worth a shot or no-go?

Offline PurpleYouko

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Photosynthesis
« Reply #7 on: February 23, 2005, 11:34:51 AM »
I should say that it works out as pretty much the same as my specialization idea. You just produce enzymes for whichever type of food you want to eat. I still think it should be fixed at birth though. How many sharks have you ever known that can suddenly switch diets to eating Kelp?

Some plants such as the venus Venus fly trap supplement their photosynthesis by digesting animal tissue. They obviously produce some sort of enzyme to do it but as before, this is fixed at birth and can't be contolled later.

The only difference I see is that you have 20 bits while I proposed 5. No big deal either way. You just have to work out an exponential gain in efficiency for multiple specialization. ie. if a "Plant" wants to be super efficient at photosynthesis, it spends all 5 (20) specialization points on photosythesis, it will have to produce more energy than 5 (20) single points could produce.

Incidentally, single celled alg seem to manage to photosynthesize pretty well without getting huge.

Have you coded any of this yet?

 :D  PY  :D
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Offline Numsgil

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Photosynthesis
« Reply #8 on: February 23, 2005, 11:49:55 AM »
I've just started the prototyping for the stomachs and mouths and shots, and all that good stuff.  Nothing actually done yet.

I think the machinery for producing the enzymes should be fixed at birth, but you should be able to build more enzymes to digest faster.

Food sits in your stomach until it is digested.  The more enzymes you have to digest it, the faster you can.  Undigestable bits are, of course, expelled as waste.

I don't necessarily like the idea of making the existing enzymes more efficient as you specialize.  Seems a little bit artificial.  I don't have a satisfactory replacement though.

Maybe something will come to me later...

Maybe the more you specialize the faster you can build enzymes.  Then enzymes are lost over time, so you have to constantly be making more.  Not sure though.

Offline Anonomous Guest Person

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Photosynthesis
« Reply #9 on: February 23, 2005, 04:22:16 PM »
The problem with the shark arguement is that it assumes all the bots in DarwinBots are multi-cellular. Very multi-cellular.
It'd be simple to rework a single cell. It'd be nearly impossible to rework millions, without causing a metamorphosis.
And further more, with a metamorphosis, the organism's diet can change.
In fact, the reason any organism would have a metamorphosis, on a design side of view, is so that reproduction can be cheap, and organisms can still become powerful. Once they've gained the proper energy as a juvenile to grow into a powerful organism, that is.

So, therefore, your arguement is invalid, and simply is a mostly general case. But I believe most insects go through a metamorphosis. In fact, I'm pretty sure ALL of them do!

Offline Numsgil

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Photosynthesis
« Reply #10 on: February 23, 2005, 04:35:49 PM »
I think, therefore, that it must take some time to change specializations.

Offline PurpleYouko

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Photosynthesis
« Reply #11 on: February 23, 2005, 05:17:43 PM »
Quote
The problem with the shark arguement is that it assumes all the bots in DarwinBots are multi-cellular. Very multi-cellular.
It'd be simple to rework a single cell. It'd be nearly impossible to rework millions, without causing a metamorphosis.
And further more, with a metamorphosis, the organism's diet can change.
In fact, the reason any organism would have a metamorphosis, on a design side of view, is so that reproduction can be cheap, and organisms can still become powerful. Once they've gained the proper energy as a juvenile to grow into a powerful organism, that is.

So, therefore, your arguement is invalid, and simply is a mostly general case. But I believe most insects go through a metamorphosis. In fact, I'm pretty sure ALL of them do!
OK then lets get a bit more specific at a single cellular level if the shark idiom doesn't cut it for you.

How about the nitrogen cycle that changes Ammonia into Nitrates in an aquarium and at the bottom of a pond.

There are 2 bacteria (yes single celled) that carry out this process.

The first one is called Nitrosomonas. It lives by converting ammonia into Nitrite. In the absence of ammonia it dies. It cannot adapt to another food source EVER.

The second is called Nitrobacter. It derives its energy by converting Nitrite into Nitrate. This is called Nitrogen fixing. It relies on Nitrosomonas to live. If there is no Nitrite then it dies. It cannot adapt to any other food source.

How many generations of bacteria do you think it takes to get from one food source to a different one.

How about The Nylon Bug? It mutated to feed on a completely novel food source. The point is that it evolved the ability to metabolize Nylon, from one generation to another. A bug that had previously fed on cellulose (for example) didn't suddenly decide to start eating plastic.

Specialization requires evolution not mutation.

 :D  PY  :D
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Offline Numsgil

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Photosynthesis
« Reply #12 on: February 23, 2005, 05:27:17 PM »
I think the problem here is that bots have the machinery to do anything that any other bot can do.  Bots can't evolve ways to create new machinery.  We can limit their access to machinery, but that's about it.

Offline Anonomous Guest Person

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Photosynthesis
« Reply #13 on: February 23, 2005, 05:33:31 PM »
Probably quite a lot of generations. But DarwinBots simulations are defaulted to small areas.
And the bots themselves can go pretty fast, as well.
It doesn't take one very long to go from one side of the field to the other on a default simulation.

Your arguement may be valid. However, mere specializations seem very flat.

(Eheh. I wrote this post up, and only remembered to post at least five or six minutes later. <_< )
« Last Edit: February 23, 2005, 05:34:58 PM by Anonomous Guest Person »

Offline Anonomous Guest Person

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Photosynthesis
« Reply #14 on: February 23, 2005, 05:42:31 PM »
Quote
I think the problem here is that bots have the machinery to do anything that any other bot can do.  Bots can't evolve ways to create new machinery.  We can limit their access to machinery, but that's about it.
Perhaps you could add another section to the bot's DNA file, which gives it it's physical form.
This, however, would be a huge step, and would likely be the jump from version 2.xx to 3.00 if it's added.
« Last Edit: February 23, 2005, 05:42:44 PM by Anonomous Guest Person »