F3 league

[Numsgil]

I'd disallow things like deleting genes to fool conspec, but something as simple as parroting back in values is fine.

[Peter]

Here is my application for F3 league .
It doesn't need wrong tricks like virussus.
It isn't using any mean stuff like poison, shell or venom.
No slime eather, why waste it if you can use it for shooting.
It doesn't use ties, ties are mean. Philosophy is just that a opponent/colleague should go freely.
It doesn't use body shots, those are bad to the body.
It doesn't reproduce, the sim is already full enough.
It also doesn't use any conspec recocnition, it is just evil to check if the one you're shooting at has the same dna as you do.

Shortly a very smart bot

Code: [Select]

start
*.maxvel *.vel sub .up store
*.eye4 *.eye6 sub .aimsx store
.shoot inc

[bacillus]

I think deleting genes comes into a similar category to viruses ;no messing with DNA.

[abyaly]

F2 matches are mostly decided by good application of shell, venom, and body management.
These are the "dirty tricks" of F2; things that can make a weak bot much stronger simply by their addition.
Ties, viruses and (unofficially) harsh info shots are the "dirty tricks" of F1; things that can make a weak bot much stronger simply by their addition.

I think F3 should forbid the "dirty tricks" of both F1 and F2.

[Moonfisher]

Ties are still used in F2, it's only tie feeding wich isn't alowed... so you can still do a lot of harm with ties in F2...
Read somewhere that one of the early F2 bots made the oponent spin around or something... but currently wasting energy on high shoot values and such seems to be the best way to kill with ties...
Does make a big difference that you can't feed with them though, makes it a lot harder for small bots to survive.

Still, removing venom, mem shots and ties completely does make it a lot simpler... those are some of the areas that can be realy tricky to figure out...
And if deleting genes isn't allowed it'll be easy to make a conspec too...
But it is true that shell and poison are very powerfull... but there should probably also be something in F3 to make it a litle interesting... so if you want a top 10 F3 placement you need to get the hang of shell and poison... I think it's within reason, shell is easy to understand, and poison introduces the conept of messing with your oponents memmory.

[abyaly]

I once worked on a bot called Aura. I wanted it to be the top of both leagues, so I carefully worked out a clever navigation, conspec, and spreading systems. At that point, Aura didn't get very far.
So, I looked at some of the other F2 bots to see what they did. They used shell. Oh-ho, I thought, I'll add some shell to Aura to make it stronger. As you may expect, it got stronger after that. But it still wasn't quite strong enough to clear the leagues. I decided to make Aura create shell to match it's current body and energy count (iirc). I didn't know it at the time, but this actually made Aura the only bot able to replenish shell that it lost (because .shell didn't update properly for shell loss). This modification let Aura sweep F1 and F2.
Now, some of the people reading this will think that the navigation, conspec, and spreading systems might have contributed, but all three of those had pretty bad bugs in them. The conspec occasionally failed. Aura wouldn't accelerate past a certain velocity. The aim was calculated incorrectly. It also wasted lots of energy moving back and forth away from allies (bots are able to find food more quickly at a much lower energy cost). I believe that all of the things that I had thought were clever at the time were actually detrimental to it. Aura swept the leagues for two reasons: it had giant onmi-eye vision and it was the only bot that replenished lost shell.
This is the kind of difference shell makes.
I consider shell to be too much of a factor in F2.


If F3 includes shell, there won't be a significant difference between F2 and F3.

[Numsgil]

Here is my application for F3 league  .
It doesn't need wrong tricks like virussus.
It isn't using any mean stuff like poison, shell or venom.
No slime eather, why waste it if you can use it for shooting.
It doesn't use ties, ties are mean. Philosophy is just that a opponent/colleague should go freely.
It doesn't use body shots, those are bad to the body.
It doesn't reproduce, the sim is already full enough.
It also doesn't use any conspec recocnition, it is just evil to check if the one you're shooting at has the same dna as you do.

Shortly a very smart bot  

Code: [Select]

start
 *.maxvel *.vel sub .up store
 *.eye4 *.eye6 sub .aimsx store
 .shoot inc

It fails!  It's using .shoot inc, which is an info shot and not allowed.  You wanted .shoot dec

[Peter]

It fails!  It's using .shoot inc, which is an info shot and not allowed.  You wanted .shoot dec

oh....  , yes sure it does.

I ehm   .. waited till someone would pick that one up.

Yes, that's it  , really.

[bacillus]

Remember we should keep it as simple as possible, as the league is for newbies. I think keeping it down to one-step processes like .mkshell would be appropriate, as their function is fairly obvious.

[Numsgil]

I once worked on a bot called Aura. I wanted it to be the top of both leagues, so I carefully worked out a clever navigation, conspec, and spreading systems. At that point, Aura didn't get very far.
So, I looked at some of the other F2 bots to see what they did. They used shell. Oh-ho, I thought, I'll add some shell to Aura to make it stronger. As you may expect, it got stronger after that. But it still wasn't quite strong enough to clear the leagues. I decided to make Aura create shell to match it's current body and energy count (iirc). I didn't know it at the time, but this actually made Aura the only bot able to replenish shell that it lost (because .shell didn't update properly for shell loss). This modification let Aura sweep F1 and F2.
Now, some of the people reading this will think that the navigation, conspec, and spreading systems might have contributed, but all three of those had pretty bad bugs in them. The conspec occasionally failed. Aura wouldn't accelerate past a certain velocity. The aim was calculated incorrectly. It also wasted lots of energy moving back and forth away from allies (bots are able to find food more quickly at a much lower energy cost). I believe that all of the things that I had thought were clever at the time were actually detrimental to it. Aura swept the leagues for two reasons: it had giant onmi-eye vision and it was the only bot that replenished lost shell.
This is the kind of difference shell makes.
I consider shell to be too much of a factor in F2.


If F3 includes shell, there won't be a significant difference between F2 and F3.

Hmm, that is a valid point.  I'll have to stew this over to figure out what I think

[Moonfisher]

Ok I have to admit shell and poison are pretty poerfull on their own... ran the example I posted earlier against some of the old F1 league bots and it was able to beat a lot of them...
It's true that beign stingy about shell is rarely usefull... and if there was no shell and poison the focus would realy be on navigation and comunication.
But boosting shots is a serious advantage aswell...

On the other hand if you have no shell or shot boosts then large bots become a lot stronger... but if you remove strbody then reproduction comes with a serious cost to size and power....

So it seems like things may get a litle predictable if we lock too much, but it also seems like shell and poison combined with boosted shots would allow F3 bots to compete in F1...
Without it they probably wouldn't be able to compete in F2 though...

You could also argue that since shell, poison and boosted shots are so important it would be an advatage for people to have a lague with just those 3 weapons... start out learning some of the most important attacks and defences and see how big a diference they can make...
And taking out mem shots, ties and venom removes some of the realy dirty tricks.

So basicaly I think a league with just shell, posion and boosted shots would be great for understanding the use of basic weaponry, but I also think a league with no advanced weapons could be very interesting...
I still think comunication and movement would play a big role in both cases though.

[Commander Keen]

F3 could potentially be very interesting, as then spreading algorithms and a good eye system would become really important, as shell and poison give bots time to react. If they lost these defenses, then it would be more important than ever for bots to react faster.

I think small bots could do well in F3 because larger bots won't have the benefit of having heaps of shell and poison. Small bots could more easily overwhelm a large bot...

[Moonfisher]

Actualy if shell is allowed a large bot would be able to hold off a lot of small bots for a long time...
The advantage of being many is to reach the alge faster, but a large oponent with plenty of energy can replenish shell for a long time.
Venom and mem shots and ties is what realy gives the advantage to many small bots... since if one doesn't manage to inject the venom another will...
But if noone can mess with your memmory unless you shoot at them, then there's no way to bypass the shell...
I'm not even sure if it's worth trying to shoot if your oponent has shell too... it may be better to only eat alge and just keep a lot of shell and poison, just let your oponents kill themselves trying to get through your shell...

[Numsgil]

Okay, let's try it with just -1 and -6 shots.  No shell, slime, poison, venom, viruses, delgene, or infoshots.

[bacillus]

Agreed.