Author Topic: F3 league  (Read 4288 times)

Offline Numsgil

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F3 league
« on: September 26, 2008, 03:21:24 AM »
We might want to either extend the league to have more places (maybe 100), or invent a "newbie" league or something.

Offline Commander Keen

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« Reply #1 on: September 26, 2008, 03:42:07 AM »
A newbie league sounds good to me. I'm not so sure about having a league with 100 places, it would be fine to add new bots one at a time but if you wanted to rerun the entire league it could take some time...  

Possibly there could be an F3 league, with no ties, no viruses, no venom, no instakills, no info shots, and all bots must be adequately commented to be readable by new players. That way there'd just be nice simple bots with poison and shell. Or maybe even cut those and just have straight combat/dogfighting.

It would be cool to have a mega-league where there is one huge map and a few veggies, and all the bots in the league are dumped in all at once, and their ranking is determined by how long they last. It would rely on chance to a degree, but it would be diffrent, and you could possibly code diffrent species to cooperate...

Offline Moonfisher

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« Reply #2 on: September 26, 2008, 04:02:42 AM »
Yeah or make an F3 league.... with F2 rules plus some extra like no ties at all maybe... maybe eliminate venom too even...
Only problem is it risks getting filled up with strong bots aswell eventualy. But it's impossible to check if people are newbies when they post a bot, and when exactly is a bot fresh enough to get in the newbie league

I think the easyest way would just be to make a very simple league... like no mem attacks, no shell, no poison or venom, no ties, no cospec cameloen behavior... so basicaly just navigation and shooting...
I think I'd go with something like that, so people can learn the basics in F3, then move up as they learn more... maybe start off the league with a few very simple bots in it, presenting each their challenge to beat.

Also I don't think Lovebot will be very strong, it exploited the new sexrepro and raped everything including the plants, but now it shouldn't be able to mate with the plants or even most oponents... and since rape was about it's only weapon it will probably fail hard in the new versions...

(Edit:)
LOL, great minds think alike  was typing this at the same time... I also like the added rule that the bots should be readable in F3
As for the mega league idea... I have a great bot for that, an evo bot, basicaly a neural network structure broken down with about 2000 mutations... but it was evolved in a size 13 field with 25 veggies...
It learned to not kill the veggies and to spread out over the entire field, it also uses reproduction as a defence mechanisme and all sorts of cool evo stuff...
It doesn't use ties so I'm sure a better bot could be made for the purpose, but this one evolved almost from scratch and now holds about 2000 bots in a size 13 field with 25 veggies
Only problem with it is that it has no defences against all the hand authored attacks out there, so it may hamser the alge well but it will also serve as food for other bots
Anyway I like the idea, but the outcome will probably have a lot to do with chance.

Also while I'm typing anyway... does anyone else have problems with DB 2.44 ? Was going to sugest we run all the leagues in 2.44 from now on, but I can't actualy run a league in DB 2.44 so...
I also get strange bugs, when adding a bot to the list of bots, sometimes it's like I'm not sure which bots are which, I add a bot and the other bots switch around colors and setting , if I run a league it ends after one fight claiming there are no more bots... I don't have a specific bug report or anything, just getting some wierdness....
« Last Edit: September 26, 2008, 04:17:38 AM by Moonfisher »

Offline bacillus

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« Reply #3 on: September 26, 2008, 06:32:26 PM »
I think I should reveal that the Communal Bot league was run via your 'mega-league' system   . I think the F3 league is a good idea, maybe disallow any tricks beyond -1 and -6 shots, maybe shell as well. Sounds boring, but it will give newbies (and others   )a chance to test some basis bots, which can then be adapted for better F2/F1 bots.
Okay, time to find all these F2 bots and integrate them into F1!
EDIT-Actually, do you happen to have a zip file for all the bots? I'm too lazy to go look for them all.
« Last Edit: September 26, 2008, 06:39:06 PM by bacillus »
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Offline abyaly

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« Reply #4 on: September 26, 2008, 07:01:22 PM »
I'd suggest F3 be restricted to energy shots only. No venom/poison/shell/body shots/viruses/info shots/ties. Maybe even no strbody or fdbody. Those are the things I consider "surprisingly important" in that a person new to DB wouldn't necessarily realize they make a huge difference.
Even when restricted only to -1 shots, you can still end up with a lot of complexity involved in navigation, searching, dogfighting, and communication.
Lancre operated on the feudal system, which was to say, everyone feuded all
the time and handed on the fight to their descendants.
        -- (Terry Pratchett, Carpe Jugulum)

Offline bacillus

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« Reply #5 on: September 26, 2008, 07:24:39 PM »
I think strbody and fdbody should be allowed, else bots get too small in no time.
"They laughed at Columbus, they laughed at Fulton, they laughed at the Wright brothers. But they also laughed at Bozo the Clown."
- Carl Sagan

Offline Numsgil

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« Reply #6 on: September 27, 2008, 02:22:04 AM »
Ideally it should work that a F3 bot can fight in F2, in the same way that a F2 bot can fight in F1, so along that line I think it should be simple a scaled down F2.  I would limit a F3 strictly to -1, -6, and shell.  No ties (at all), no viruses, no venom, no poison, no info shots, etc.  All the complexity has to come from navigation and dog fighting and cooperation (if any).    I'd let the bots do whatever internal logic (strbody, fdbody, etc.) they want.  In addition to being easier for newbies to play with, maybe we'll start to see some more bots that cooperate, since the fun attacks like "kill off all veggies with instakill" can't be done.

I know something like animal minimalis would qualify.  There are probably quite a few others, so it wouldn't be hard to set up a small league of existing bots.
« Last Edit: September 27, 2008, 02:23:52 AM by Numsgil »

Offline bacillus

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« Reply #7 on: September 27, 2008, 03:12:01 AM »
What about modifying -1 and -6 shots?
"They laughed at Columbus, they laughed at Fulton, they laughed at the Wright brothers. But they also laughed at Bozo the Clown."
- Carl Sagan

Offline Numsgil

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« Reply #8 on: September 27, 2008, 03:40:15 AM »
You mean using shootval to power 'em up with added strength or range?

Sure, I think that's valid.  You pay a lot of energy for the privilege.

Offline Moonfisher

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« Reply #9 on: September 27, 2008, 07:15:43 AM »
I think shell and poison are a greay area... I would sugest either none or both in F3...
Either it should be as simple as possible or if shell is added I think poison should be there too.

The whole point is to balance your shell and poison production and to choose your shots according to the oponents shell and poison... so I think those 2 go hand in hand...
Also it's limited what damage you can do with poison...

Also this could make things a litle interesting with people using .shell in their poison to prevent the oponent from regaining shell in a fight or stuff like that...
I also think strbody and fdbody should be in there.

And Eric I got Fruit Flies out on IM... but I hate watching my sim slow down so I put it in an alge as a virus (FlyFruit), it looks like it's managed to infect both VC and seasnake... everything I got in today was infected with Fruit Flies  And the alge that was spreading them is doing ok aswell... funny enough it was one of the test version of the alge that did best while the one I had high hopes for got nowhere...

Also I want to make this clear : Pacifist does not beat Fruit Flies in the new versions of DB (2.43.1L and 2.44). I realize the leagues are being run in an older version... but wanted to say it anyway.... in 2.44 Fruit Flies pwns !

Offline Numsgil

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« Reply #10 on: September 27, 2008, 05:09:30 PM »
Oh, right.  If you have shell you need poison.

Offline bacillus

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« Reply #11 on: September 27, 2008, 06:09:55 PM »
Moonfisher raises a good point, I do need to download a newer version   . Anyway, I don't think poison is that powerful, but it may give people the edge in F3.
"They laughed at Columbus, they laughed at Fulton, they laughed at the Wright brothers. But they also laughed at Bozo the Clown."
- Carl Sagan

Offline Moonfisher

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« Reply #12 on: September 28, 2008, 11:31:41 AM »
If the F3 league fills up with tough bots, then we can always make an F4 league with no shell or poison or -6 shots or comuniaction or anything....
But... if people need to learn how to handle movement and all that stuff effectively a good start would be to just add an example more or less like this one to the guide :

[div class=\'codetop\']CODE[div class=\'codemain\' style=\'height:200px;white-space:pre;overflow:auto\']cond
start
.shoot .ploc store
.deltie inc

*.thisgene 1 !=
1 .delgene store
not
2 .delgene store

*.nrg 2500 >
*.body 500 > and
50 .repro store

*.nrg 500 <
*.body 100 > and
100 .fdbody store

*.nrg 2000 >
100 .strbody store
*.shell 500 < and
100 .mkshell store

*.nrg 1000 >
*.poison *.shell < and
*.shell 100 add *.poison sub .strpoison store

*.eyef 0 !=
*.refshoot *.myshoot != and
*.refxpos *.refypos angle .setaim store
*.refvelup 25 add .up store
*.refveldx .dx store
10 .shootval store

dupbool
*.refpoison *.refshell < and
-1 .shoot store

dropbool
dupbool
*.refpoison *.refshell >= and
-6 .shoot store

dropbool
not
30 .aimright store
40 .up store
stop


It's all you realy need to get started... gives a good sense of how the controlls and refvars work.
Not sure if it should be using inline conditions...

Oh and BTW, would cameleon behavior be alowed in F3 ?
« Last Edit: September 28, 2008, 11:42:06 AM by Moonfisher »

Offline Numsgil

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« Reply #13 on: September 28, 2008, 02:57:35 PM »
Quote from: Moonfisher
Oh and BTW, would cameleon behavior be alowed in F3 ?

Which behavior?  You mean like deleting genes filled with eyes to fool conspec?

Offline bacillus

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« Reply #14 on: September 28, 2008, 06:20:01 PM »
things like *.in1 .out1 store...
"They laughed at Columbus, they laughed at Fulton, they laughed at the Wright brothers. But they also laughed at Bozo the Clown."
- Carl Sagan