Author Topic: Crows are pretty damn smart  (Read 27655 times)

Offline EricL

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Crows are pretty damn smart
« Reply #15 on: May 27, 2008, 07:35:37 PM »
Quote from: gymsum
John Rife... should be able to explain some of that... In short: all frequencies are vibrational energies... all matter has mass... E=mc^2 therefore all mass is energy. Therefore all frequencies and energies are contained within entities as matter. And all matter is contained as a frequency or energy.

In Hemp for instance...

If you ask me, I think someone has been doing a little more more with hemp than just looking at seeds...
Many beers....

Offline Trafalgar

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« Reply #16 on: May 27, 2008, 10:48:33 PM »
Well, it's not his fault - When God created the universe 5 seconds ago, he created it complete with his thoughts, opinions, memories, and that post there. Oh, and this post too, since you're almost certainly reading this more than 5 seconds after I wrote it. Oops, does that say "after I wrote it?" It should have said "after God made it look like I wrote it and gave me memories of writing it."

(I like to bring this out whenever someone trots out the crazy creationism argument, but I'm making an exception for a different kind of craziness in this case. The circular reasoning kind of made me go  . Although that does sound vaguely a little like string theory, but I don't particularly care for string theory either - I rather prefer scientific theories about laws of the universe to actually be *testable*.)

P.S. I couldn't find anything about your John Rife on wikipedia. The only one that comes up is this fellow: "John Winebrenner Rife (August 14, 1846–April 17, 1908) was a Republican member of the you.S. House of Representatives from Pennsylvania."

Offline gymsum

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« Reply #17 on: May 28, 2008, 12:42:34 AM »
Quote from: Numsgil
Saying that DNA is energy is like saying that an airplane is wood, wire, aluminum, and a bit of steel.  It may be a true statement, but it in no way helps you understand the amazing feat it is capable of.  In fact, it's not until you bring the abstraction level up to the level of chemistry that you can begin to understand the amazing DNA molecule.  General relativity does not really impact biology at all, in fact.  Quantum mechanics just barely overlaps if you include chemistry (which is a pretty pedestrian application of quantum mechanics at that...)

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I say the difference between intelligence and instinctual ntelligence is evident but not always clear. In Hemp for instance, should the environment conditions chnage from the previous year, the plant will reproduce seed to be better suited for that environment. The definition of a mind is clear cut, but instictual intelligence is not.. The same method for reaction occurs in almost every natural being, sea fish like Salmon are capable of climatizing to fresh water, etc...

Certainly instinct exists, and it's quite amazing in its own right.  I don't dispute that at all.  But in this case I think it involves thought.

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...It could be that it has developed to use scent for food markers and complex oral communications to transfer memories, ...

That's a far bolder statement than I intended, certainly.  Crows certainly vocalize quite a bit.  I tend to think of their calls as a few common phrases, like : "nyah, nyah", "mine", "shoo", "I'm sexy!" and "You're sexy!".  But who knows, they might be playing that game between Andre the giant and the Spaniard in "The Princess Bride":

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Inigo Montoya: That Vizzini, he can *fuss*.
Fezzik: Fuss, fuss... I think he like to scream at *us*.
Inigo Montoya: Probably he means no *harm*.
Fezzik: He's really very short on *charm*.
Inigo Montoya: You have a great gift for rhyme.
Fezzik: Yes, yes, some of the time.
Vizzini: Enough of that.
Inigo Montoya: Fezzik, are there rocks ahead?
Fezzik: If there are, we all be dead.
Vizzini: No more rhyming now, I mean it.
Fezzik: Anybody want a peanut?
Vizzini: DYEEAAHHHHHH.



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It is the difference in minds that make them capable. And I do not see a bird asking the question why; something necessary for "understanding" anything. but I dont think that a Crow would ever ask itself why it eats. And if a being does not ask why, then it cannot get an answer of understanding.

I'm not saying crows are sentient, just far more adaptable and intelligent than other city birds I've ever seen.  I consider it like the Turing test for computers, only applied to intelligence: if some animal can convince me it's smart, it probably is.

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Thats where the whole 42 bit comes in.

What 42 bit thing?  Surely you're not bringing a British radio play in to a conversation about crows in anything but a tongue-in-cheek way?

The string theory has been created to combine the general theory of relativitiy and apply it with quantum physics... the test has been run in switzerland, havent read the results yet..

Offline Shasta

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« Reply #18 on: May 28, 2008, 12:52:40 AM »
When I lived in Alaska for several years, I saw plenty of animals doing things that make you think.

Ravens are smarter than crows hands down though in all instances I have seen. If you ever see a raven close up, they are kind of eerie. They are pretty large and I have heard of them opening doors/simple locks and getting at food from neighbors.

 One of the funniest sights I saw up there was a bear cub though. The salmon were spawning and he caught a fish. Not wanting it taken by another bear he tried to run up the stream bank (pretty long and steep) right as he got to the top, he dropped his fish. It rolled all the way back down, so he went down and tried again. And dropped it. Then he settled for eating at the bottom of the bank.

But even with the silly bears you could see signs of them being quite smart just in their eating. They had so much food they would only eat the choice parts of the fish usually, so you would find a bunch of tails with spines with heads laying around.

Offline gymsum

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« Reply #19 on: May 28, 2008, 01:07:14 AM »
So theres no confusion Im double posting:

to explain John Rife Device Theory:

Apparently some man named Johnathan Rife was attempting to identify a virus with a microscope to prove they exsisted. He had to develop a microscope that would emmit enough light to see the virus under intense magnification. He developed a complex microscope of sorts that used a series of high emitting bulbs filled with an inert gas, the idea was to bombard the virus with enough electrons to emmit its own protons back. He managed to identify the virus and as he continued his studies, he was able to produce a frequency which shattered the protein walls of the virus.

TO explain my half-crocked theory on string theory:

We can begin with a simple example: we have a piece of paper and a desk. If we place the paper on the desk, the desk should push back with equal force on the paper. But if you have ever used a desk that is prone to magnetism, then you know that under the right conditions the paper will stick more to the desk. Secondly, we know that the theory of numbers is based on image. The easiest way to sum up decimals is to determine how a split is made; each place is a reduction from the last split by the same multiplier, meaning at no time can you ever have a difference of 0, but you will have several closer numbers. The Chaos thoery explains that as small and insignificant instances occur, the more change over time takes place. This augmentation of entropy is an importnat law of Thermodynamics, and in accustic terms is evry similar to amplification and cancelation. So we have a means to express the results of an environment, and in this instance our only two objects are a piece of paper and the desk. On a mollecular level, the paper is composed of hydrogen and carbon compounds and the desk like wise; yet their composition and structure ensure the two never intersect eachother's plane of exsistance. Due to entropy and gravity, the paper will forever boune between touching the desk and not touching the desk. From this understanding of a piece of paper bouncing and landing on a desk, the idea that the paper is producing a frequency can be tested by measuring the minute difference in change of the papers position against parallel to the vector of gravity. At the same time, the laws of conservation state that at no time that energy exsists, will the entire value of energy in the system change; it also says that all matter is conserved, and likewise all energy. So should we decide to set fire to the paper, the same amount of energy will exsist in our system of objects in another state. THe last of my rant goes into quantum physics and is quite controverseal as far as theory uis concerned...

Since everything is made of quarks, everything can be said to be made of the same simple components. Furthermore, quarks are constantly moving in a state described as the Heisemer Principle, and this movement is alternating and constant. Above that the atoms have constant movement of electrons meaning that all matter is a state of constant kinetic energy.

Sorry if this seems to be outside the argument of the Crow, and I do fail to see how its even related....

I will say that crows are smart, but I would have to admit that worms are smart for knowing to always rise when its raining so the birds cant eat them.

Offline Numsgil

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« Reply #20 on: May 28, 2008, 04:38:30 AM »
Quote from: gymsum
to explain John Rife Device Theory:

Apparently some man named Johnathan Rife was attempting to identify a virus with a microscope to prove they exsisted. He had to develop a microscope that would emmit enough light to see the virus under intense magnification. He developed a complex microscope of sorts that used a series of high emitting bulbs filled with an inert gas, the idea was to bombard the virus with enough electrons to emmit its own protons back. He managed to identify the virus and as he continued his studies, he was able to produce a frequency which shattered the protein walls of the virus.

Nope, can't find any google links about John or Johnathan Rife (or I can, but it seems to be a present-day lawyer).  Sure you have the name right (the rest of the story there seems scientifically implausible, so I'm guessing you're remembering some of the details incorrectly).

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But if you have ever used a desk that is prone to magnetism

Hmm, sounds inconvienient plugging it in and dangerous for all those floppies I have lying around.  Or do you mean prone to static electricity?

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Secondly, we know that the theory of numbers is based on image.

Hmm, I think you're making up words here.  You don't mean a function's image do you?

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The easiest way to sum up decimals is to determine how a split is made; each place is a reduction from the last split by the same multiplier, meaning at no time can you ever have a difference of 0, but you will have several closer numbers.

Are you using abstract algebra?  ie: something like this: split on wiki?)  New forum rule: there shall be no abelian groups allowed in discussions!  Also, all conversations must be reflexive .  In all seriousness, I don't think those words mean what you think they do

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...the idea that the paper is producing a frequency can be tested by measuring the minute difference in change of the papers position against parallel to the vector of gravity...

Hmm, I measure zero.  Do I need more sensitive equipment?  Or should I take my desk/paper system out of my Zero Kelvin freezer?

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...quarks are constantly moving in a state described as the Heisemer Principle, and this movement is alternating and constant. Above that the atoms have constant movement of electrons meaning that all matter is a state of constant kinetic energy.

Yeah, it's statements like that that make me pretty sure you don't know what you're talking about.  Because, see, I more or less know what the Uncertainty principle says (not the Heisenberg principle (although it is sometimes called the Heisenberg uncertainty principle), which you managed to spell wrong) says, and it certainly does not say that movement is "alternating and constant".  In fact I don't believe the uncertainty principle factors in to absolute temperature.  It only relates inherent limitations for measuring the momentum and position of a subatomic particle.  

You don't have to delve in to quantum mechanics at all to say that molecules are in motion.  That's a temperature thing.  That's a fundamental principle of the ideal gas laws that let you equate pressure, temperature, and volume for gases.  Which is where that whole Kelvin system comes from.  And you don't need to delve in to string theory to say that matter is energy.  That's a connection with general (special?  Can never remember which is which) relativity.  And you also don't need to evoke the kinetic motion of atoms.  A lump of iron at 0 Kelvin is still an amount of energy given by that famous equation E = mC^2.

And last, the super collider on the border of France and Switzerland that's run by CERN is not operational yet.  If it was, and it managed to detect the Higgs Boson (which is not a guarentee), it would, at best, provide weak circumstantial evidence for string theory, not "proof".  In fact, the entire standard model for quantum mechanics needs it, so if no Higgs boson is found, that's not only a rather large nail in the coffin of string theory, but a rather large nail in the coffin of the standard model, and with it quite a bit of theory.

At its core string theory is rather untestable, so much so that it really shouldn't be called string "theory", but maybe string "vague idea".  Or maybe string "we think it might be something sort of like..." or maybe even string "my Mom told me I was dead on with this!".

Anyway, I can't help but get the impression that you are largely (and incorrectly) self taught on a variety of subjects, and thus do not have the solid grounding a formal math or physics education gives to understand the difference between fantasy/pseudoscience and science.
« Last Edit: May 28, 2008, 04:58:08 AM by Numsgil »

Offline Peter

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« Reply #21 on: May 28, 2008, 10:39:39 AM »
Quote from: gymsum
John Rife... should be able to explain some of that... In short: all frequencies are vibrational energies... all matter has mass... E=mc^2 therefore all mass is energy. Therefore all frequencies and energies are contained within entities as matter. And all matter is contained as a frequency or energy.
Who is that John, link please.

Quote from: Numsgil
Saying that DNA is energy is like saying that an airplane is wood, wire, aluminum, and a bit of steel.  It may be a true statement, but it in no way helps you understand the amazing feat it is capable of.  In fact, it's not until you bring the abstraction level up to the level of chemistry that you can begin to understand the amazing DNA molecule.  General relativity does not really impact biology at all, in fact.  Quantum mechanics just barely overlaps if you include chemistry (which is a pretty pedestrian application of quantum mechanics at that...)
A bit of steel...., most airplanes use something like 5% steel mixed with the aluminium. It makes it way stronger, and a little heavier. Pointless informaion, but anyway.

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Inigo Montoya: That Vizzini, he can *fuss*.
Fezzik: Fuss, fuss... I think he like to scream at *us*.
Inigo Montoya: Probably he means no *harm*.
Fezzik: He's really very short on *charm*.
Inigo Montoya: You have a great gift for rhyme.
Fezzik: Yes, yes, some of the time.
Vizzini: Enough of that.
Inigo Montoya: Fezzik, are there rocks ahead?
Fezzik: If there are, we all be dead.
Vizzini: No more rhyming now, I mean it.
Fezzik: Anybody want a peanut?
Vizzini: DYEEAAHHHHHH.
eh?

Quote from: gymsum
So theres no confusion Im double posting:
...
...
TO explain my half-crocked theory on string theory:
Well, you're not doubleposting but ok. Yoú're having a theory about a theory, well.....uh....yes...well......indeed.....copl..huh.., what does crocked mean anyway?

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I will say that crows are smart, but I would have to admit that worms are smart for knowing to always rise when its raining so the birds cant eat them.
Iám smart for the fact I am posting useless replys on som forums. Not every animal can.  

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At its core string theory is rather untestable, so much so that it really shouldn't be called string "theory", but maybe string "vague idea".  Or maybe string "we think it might be something sort of like..." or maybe even string "my Mom told me I was dead on with this!".
Core phycics modele is pretty untestable too. Any theory nowadays is able to be tested by testing some of the strange forecasts. Like it would be able to travel in time, following phycics theorys. If you would travel at almost light speed, then you come according to your own time ten years later, the earth you knowed would probably have changed a lot. That isn't tested, and if it isn't possible, all theorys are wrong.

Quote
At its core string theory is rather untestable, so much so that it really shouldn't be called string "theory", but maybe string "vague idea". Or maybe string "we think it might be something sort of like..." or maybe even string "my Mom told me I was dead on with this!".
Have you looked at the string theory, I does have some interesting points. Like let say a univeral theory. Further, a discussion about your opinion of string theorie is pretty pointless. Like anyone could convince me at a forum, if string theory is plausible or the universal theory of the future. And that is not only becouse I am stubborn

Edit: About that jonathan guy, it sounds a pretty english name.
Virussus where found with the elektron microscope, Germany did the discovery somewhere between WW1 and WW2. I am not sure where your story comes from.
« Last Edit: May 28, 2008, 10:53:09 AM by Peter »
Oh my god, who the hell cares.

Offline Numsgil

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« Reply #22 on: May 28, 2008, 01:31:43 PM »
Quote from: Peter
Quote
Inigo Montoya: That Vizzini, he can *fuss*.
Fezzik: Fuss, fuss... I think he like to scream at *us*.
Inigo Montoya: Probably he means no *harm*.
Fezzik: He's really very short on *charm*.
Inigo Montoya: You have a great gift for rhyme.
Fezzik: Yes, yes, some of the time.
Vizzini: Enough of that.
Inigo Montoya: Fezzik, are there rocks ahead?
Fezzik: If there are, we all be dead.
Vizzini: No more rhyming now, I mean it.
Fezzik: Anybody want a peanut?
Vizzini: DYEEAAHHHHHH.
eh?

It's a quote from the movie The Princess Bride.  I'm thinking maybe this is the sort of thing crows are cawing to each other.  One caws something, and the other tries to rhyme it.

Quote
Quote
At its core string theory is rather untestable, so much so that it really shouldn't be called string "theory", but maybe string "vague idea".  Or maybe string "we think it might be something sort of like..." or maybe even string "my Mom told me I was dead on with this!".
Core phycics modele is pretty untestable too. Any theory nowadays is able to be tested by testing some of the strange forecasts. Like it would be able to travel in time, following phycics theorys. If you would travel at almost light speed, then you come according to your own time ten years later, the earth you knowed would probably have changed a lot. That isn't tested, and if it isn't possible, all theorys are wrong.

You don't have to go that strange.  For instance, the standard model for quantum mechanics predicts various particles which have been found in particle collisions.  Except the higgs boson, because the energies of current particle accelerators aren't high enough (or that's the idea anyway).  Relativity managed to explain anomalies in the orbit of Mercury just a few years after it was formulated, which is why Einstein is so famous.  We can also accelerate particles to near the speed of light, and have observed the appropriate changes in mass/energy, there's the whole atom bomb thing, etc. etc.  Relativity may be wonky, but it really matches up with pretty much every bit of data (both observational and experimental) that we've managed to throw at it.

Offline gymsum

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« Reply #23 on: May 29, 2008, 06:54:04 AM »
http://www.rifeconference.com/


sorry about that... rife device..

Anyways, sorry I cant spell

Offline Trafalgar

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« Reply #24 on: May 29, 2008, 11:00:13 AM »
Quote from: gymsum
http://www.rifeconference.com/

I don't see a link explaining what it does. I do, however, see a crackpot disclaimer:

Quote
Our Purpose:
"To share the incredible potential of Rife technology for improved health!"

... No statements made, including videos and links to other sites, should be construed as a claim for cure, treatment, or prevention of any disease or as a substitute for professional health care.

Offline Peter

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« Reply #25 on: May 29, 2008, 12:02:01 PM »
Quote from: gymsum
http://www.rifeconference.com/


sorry about that... rife device..

Anyways, sorry I cant spell

Quote
Royal Raymond Rife (May 16, 1888 – August 5, 1971) claimed to have used a special optical microscope to observe very small viruses. Bacillus X and Bacillus Y (at some point renamed BX and BY viruses) were experimentally isolated, and Rife causally linked them to two forms of malignancy (cancer): carcinoma, and sarcoma. This renaming of these bacillus forms by Rife to that of viruses is now known to have been in error. The limitations of optical microscopes, and the size of viruses is such that most viruses cannot be seen under an optical microscope. Furthermore, the scientific understanding is that the estimated 15% of human cancers that are caused by viruses are caused by a number of different types. Rife's virus claims must therefore be seen as mistaken.[1]

Rife also claimed to have rendered, in the living patient, such viruses and many others inert by means of a "beam ray" device, which was claimed to devitalize pathogens by inducing resonances in their constituent chemicals[2][3]. Rife's treatment has been unanimously condemned as worthless by mainstream scientists,[4] and "Rife devices" have been blamed for the deaths of cancer sufferers who have used them in place of medical treatment.[5][6]
Quote from wikipedia

The special microscope shooting protons, is just a optical microscope. He said it was a special microscope that can see very little things, not really confirmed by other scientists at the time, becouse of high costs it never cam in full pruduction.
(few years later there came a real microscope that could see it, from other scientists and a different mechanism, like an optimal micropscope could see virusus, in most types even bacteria are pretty small.)
He also had a alternative-cure(?beam?ray?) for cancer. Yes, indeed great......(I didn't meant that)
Oh my god, who the hell cares.

Offline Numsgil

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« Reply #26 on: May 29, 2008, 01:47:29 PM »
I'm not sure I understand what this Rife guy had to do with anything when gymsum first brought him up...  Something about "all frequencies are vibrational energies...", but I don't see what a goofball "biologist" (I use the term loosely) has to do with energy, mass, string theory, etc. etc.

Offline gymsum

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« Reply #27 on: May 29, 2008, 11:55:55 PM »
Well you see, the string theory is actually a complete theoretical model of the universe which basically sums all other theories into one... Energy and mass are the exact same thing in the laws of physics. The rife device (not as a medicinal cure) is just one example of why the US government has been experimenting in high frequency emmitting devices (currently I beleive ISrael possesses anti-ballistics lasers which work on similar principles). I have done this experiment already, I took a random sampling of bacterial cultures from my town and let them propigate in a lab condition. I set 10% of them aside as a control and submitted the others to sound waves and light at vhl and vhf (very high and very low) and did a count everytime, no other conditions were altered. Some times the bacteria seemed to melt into a puddle when under sound wave radiation, and when under extreme frequencies even at low levels of brightness (I cant remember that word or care to google it.. candle?) the bacteria went into an accelerate enzymatic cellular break down. I'll ask the lab assistant to fax the read out to me. I was not able to prove that radiation in any form could "cure" anything (which is not why I was interested in Rife theory), but I was able to show that radiation, regardless of its state/form, or how fast it traveled, radiation can destroy living organisms. If I remember correctly the cuttoff of effective radiation at vhl was about 7.2 hz. This means the same principle guiding the fundamentals of light emission guides the same principles as concusive/elastic collisions. I brought up Rife not for discussion as a medical practice, but as a demenstration that Energy at Mass at any scale are = with an error of 10%. Proton is light, so I alraedy knew that but I thank Peter for clarifying it; radiation has always been known to destroy things in the wrong way, and sound seems to change the inertia of small things to produce a "group" inertia which is not driven by the group of objects. (The above experiement is not safe for home use, best for experts and in a real lab).

This experiement is safe and anyone can do it with a few things:

A C-Clamp,
Nice Speaker (something cheap tho)
Sand

Its all over youtube, creating formations in sand. The sand aligns along the nodes of the soundwaves creating voids where the wave coagulates. Nothing sigificant? One cosideration is that Cellular life could have started from a form of radiation which caused the shape of cells, cell division, and things like the growth process of human embryo.
http://youtube.com/watch?v=s9GBf8y0lY0

anyways we've gone way beyond the topic of crows and their brain size... With some final facts I believe the connection between neural nets and radiation can be made, since electricity is mass.

Offline Numsgil

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« Reply #28 on: May 30, 2008, 02:02:35 AM »
You're confusing a lot of things.

Quote from: gymsum
Well you see, the string theory is actually a complete theoretical model of the universe which basically sums all other theories into one...

No, not quite.  It's a way of unifying the four elemental forces.  (The three on the atomic scale (electromagnetism, weak, and strong) and that other one that operates on the galactic scale (gravity)).  Assuming for a moment that such a theory is possible and we had it in hand, it wouldn't really help biologists, sociologists, economists, anthropologists, etc.  The theories these "soft" sciences deal with are emergent, and understanding the extremely fundamental rules that give rise to that emergence isn't really helpful in understanding the end behavior.  Oh, and It would be of extremely limited use to chemists, too, which is one of the "hard" sciences.  N-body gravity (ie: non uniform gravitational fields) doesn't really come in to play in chemistry very often   My point here is that assuming you had the completed string theory in your hand, you still couldn't make predictions about all the sort of events that interest humans: ie: phenomena that's measured using seconds, meters, dollar signs, etc. etc.

Quote
Energy and mass are the exact same thing in the laws of physics. The rife device (not as a medicinal cure) is just one example of why the US government has been experimenting in high frequency emmitting devices (currently I beleive ISrael possesses anti-ballistics lasers which work on similar principles).

You're confusing two issues here.  Energy/mass equivelance only really matters on the atomic level.  Like accelerating a proton to .999 the speed of light or splitting a uranium atom.  It would also come in to play at the macroscopic level if you had a large object moving at relativistic speeds, but that doesn't happen terribly often.

Now, high frequency lasers do not rely on energy/mass equivelance at all.  They rely on something known as the photoelectric effect, which is far more pedestrian.  Basically when a substance absorbs light it spits out excited electrons (electricity).  This is the process that lets plants produce chemical energy from sunlight.  If the light has a high enough frequency (a light's frequency describes its energy level), it can cause biochemical molecules to break their bonds, causing a cell to basically cook.  Or in the case of an anti-missile laser, it causes the missile to prematurely detonate by "cooking" the innards of the missile.

Actually, now that I think of it, I wonder how temperature gains (kinetic energy of atoms) are caused by the photoelectric effect, since the excited electrons that are created have mass that is way less than the mass of their atoms' nucleuses...  Maybe there's just a lot of 'em?

Quote
I have done this experiment already, I took a random sampling of bacterial cultures from my town and let them propigate in a lab condition. I set 10% of them aside as a control and submitted the others to sound waves and light at vhl and vhf (very high and very low) and did a count everytime, no other conditions were altered. Some times the bacteria seemed to melt into a puddle when under sound wave radiation, and when under extreme frequencies even at low levels of brightness (I cant remember that word or care to google it.. candle?) the bacteria went into an accelerate enzymatic cellular break down.

lumens is the word you're looking for...

Quote
I brought up Rife not for discussion as a medical practice, but as a demenstration that Energy at Mass at any scale are = with an error of 10%.

Destroying cells with energy doesn't destroy the matter.  It just rearranges it.  If you isolated the cells in a closed system (pitri dish with a lid), weighed it, killed the cells with energy (ie: light), then weighed it again, the two masses will be within measurable tolerance of exactly equal.  The law of conservation of mass still holds for non-relativistic situations.

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Proton is light, so I alraedy knew that but I thank Peter for clarifying it;

Peter was quoting you, not clarifying.  A proton is the nucleus of a hydrogen atom.  The word you want is photon.  They're quite different.

Quote
With some final facts I believe the connection between neural nets and radiation can be made, since electricity is mass.

No, electricity is not mass.  Electricity is made of electrons, which have mass (very, very, tiny mass).  Electricity itself is energy, though (or more accurately, a flow of energy).

Lets say you have a battery you just bought from the store.  You use it for a solid week in a flashlight, until it's dead.  If you weigh that battery, its mass will not have changed*.  How can this be if the battery has used all of its electricity and electricity is mass?  It's because all the electrons are right back where they started from (inside the battery).  The only difference is that they have a different energy potential than they did before.

* It will actually have changed, but the amount of change is something on the order of the mass of an electron.  For practical purposes 0.

And even supposing that electricity did have mass, how would that relate to neural nets?  Neural nets built in software or in the brains of creatures operate according to an abstract, mathematically definable base.  It's that case of the airplane made out of aluminum again.  You can learn all you want about aluminum, but it won't help you understand how an airpline flies, because the airplane's built from aluminum, not defined by it.
« Last Edit: May 30, 2008, 02:41:51 AM by Numsgil »

Offline gymsum

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Crows are pretty damn smart
« Reply #29 on: May 30, 2008, 08:40:38 AM »
The conservation of energy applies both at atomic and massive scale, it causes suns to burn out... If electricity is energy, then it is in fact , massive.. Anyways this is becoming a debate of words more than fact, as mass and energy have to be equal for the conservation of energy to exist, otherwise you burned things there would be an imbalance in total energy spent, meaning you wou.ld produce either less light, ash or other. Anyways if no one here is willing to think of energy and neural nets as one in the same, theres no way I can convince any of you, but the laws of thermodynamics are clear cut, the amount for work put out is always equal to the total available energy in a system, including its energy as light, heat, mass and other. While things may be very small in scale, doesnt mean the same laws do not apply, gravity does paly a role in chemistry, or the Earth would be barren of oxygen and hydrogen... And yes, just remember no matter what the work is, conservation of energy applies constant, its a Universal law in Physics with absolutely no exception.. SO the battery powering the laser runs on the exact same prinicples, ever notice how batteris get hot, its wasting some of its availble energy of electricity in the form of heat... Im not explaining lift vs mass, its energy and mass equivelancy on an atomic level resulting in a singularity of the definition of energy (I.e String Theory). Thermodynamics can be measured witht eh first law http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/First_law_of_thermodynamics The Photons emmit light, the photons hit objects and excite the object's photons, and in intense sources like the sun, the photons can give energy/heat to living organisms. OF coarse the more this happens (energy use) the more entropy occurs, meaning that the next time you try to create the energy, its so widely spraed thin that its more difficult to light the ash remains of paper. Anyways back to the crow:

Yes crows know things, but they are no PArrot. So I fail to see the connection mentioned between Alex the parrot and the Crow unless the argument is that Crows are capable of Parrot behaviors, not sure if their vocal box can handle human sounds...