Author Topic: Crows are pretty damn smart  (Read 27654 times)

Offline ikke

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« Reply #135 on: December 10, 2008, 04:29:01 AM »
Quote from: bacillus
The problem with end-of-the-world prophecies is that no-one pays attention to them, because what do you do against them, and who's going to tell you "I told you so!" afterwards?
The problem with end of the World prophecies is that the World ends on average once every 10 years or so. Funny, I must have slept through a couple.

Offline Peter

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« Reply #136 on: December 10, 2008, 11:14:01 AM »
Quote from: jknilinux
Just FYI, I don't believe because of Pascal's wager, but it is one of my favorite atheist-icides. LOL.
?atheist-icides?  

Anyway, you shouldn't try to prove god with science. Really don't try to. Before we get into the discussion here science is wrong, and you'll lose that one.
Many still refer to science as work of the devil.
Science and religion aren't compatible, anyone who tries put everything exact at it place, that one will blame one of them for being wrong.

And so far the bible(or other books) is the only real prove that there is a god. Often the bible states a little vague thingys(didn't really read the whole thing so blame me if I'm wrong),(example) there will stand up a king in the east, and eventually he will control a big country. Some will say after reading this, there was a country. And will say, another confirmed prophetsy. In my gues there is also another website(somewhere) that states the exact opposite becouse of another look at the bible.

If wouldn't base off the bible the belief in a god. A pity becouse it is the main proof.

Many will say it is good there isn't definite proof for a god. That is faith, maybe we can keep it on that.
Oh my god, who the hell cares.

Offline d-EVO

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« Reply #137 on: December 10, 2008, 11:26:56 AM »
Quote from: jknilinux
d-evo:

Looking back at your posts, I didn't see a contradiction in relation to multiple gods. mind explaining it for me?

I was just saying that if you define God as a being with total power over everything, you can't possably have many.
unless they are all working in the exact same way, and then you could define it as one being any way. if they didnt they would all just cancell each other out or very little would get done.

Quote from: jknilinux
also, religion is an insurance policy that says if you live your life a certain way, you'll get the benefits, IMO.

Just FYI, I don't believe because of Pascal's wager, but it is one of my favorite atheist-icides. LOL.

Great, so we agree

Quote
You made it sound as though people were too lazy to worship many gods at once, so they chose one and gave him the credit for everything. Not so much a contradiction as an exxageration.

sorry if I made it sound that way
« Last Edit: December 10, 2008, 11:31:10 AM by d-EVO »
1:      2 is true
2:      1 is false

Offline d-EVO

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« Reply #138 on: December 10, 2008, 02:03:23 PM »
Quote from: Peter
Many will say it is good there isn't definite proof for a god. That is faith, maybe we can keep it on that.

agreed. lets all rest in peace now
1:      2 is true
2:      1 is false

Offline ikke

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« Reply #139 on: December 11, 2008, 02:40:01 AM »
Quote from: jknilinux
Kind of off-topic, but have we ever had a thread this long before? Aside from being 153 posts long, the "view new posts" page says this thread has had over 1,000 views...
This thread is a monument to how the members of this forum can get off topic. It started with an observation on crows and bird intelligence. Look where it stands now

Offline jknilinux

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« Reply #140 on: December 11, 2008, 01:35:44 PM »
Quite amazing.

Anyway, the main refutations of Pascal's Wager so far:

1: You shouldn't use it as a reason for belief because doing so will make you go to the other place anyways.
Maybe, but it depends on how you define a ton of stuff. Anyway, it's really just to show atheists they should believe.

2: It proves all religions. True, because that's the same as saying it "disproves" atheism, which was the point, so it's not really a refutation, it just shows that you still have a problem afterwards.

I think that's all. Please let me know if there are any holes in my reasoning or any refutations I haven't acknowledged.
« Last Edit: December 11, 2008, 03:10:45 PM by jknilinux »

Offline Numsgil

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« Reply #141 on: December 11, 2008, 02:59:54 PM »
Why are you trying to refute Pascal's wager anyway?  It's a wager, and a rather tongue-in-cheek one at that.  Are you feeling threatened by the implications?

Offline bacillus

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« Reply #142 on: December 14, 2008, 03:33:13 PM »
Quote from: ikke
The problem with end of the World prophecies is that the World ends on average once every 10 years or so. Funny, I must have slept through a couple.

Like a backup earth?  

With this post added, the thread is officially longer than the F1 thread on page two of the bot tavern.
« Last Edit: December 14, 2008, 03:34:09 PM by bacillus »
"They laughed at Columbus, they laughed at Fulton, they laughed at the Wright brothers. But they also laughed at Bozo the Clown."
- Carl Sagan

Offline ikke

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« Reply #143 on: December 15, 2008, 02:37:10 AM »
Quote from: bacillus
Like a backup earth?
Probably. Didn't like the outcome of the game, pressed escape, load game and continued from the last save...
« Last Edit: December 15, 2008, 02:38:08 AM by ikke »

Offline Moonfisher

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« Reply #144 on: January 03, 2009, 09:44:49 AM »
Like loading an old sim in DB

I don't see why anyone who is religious would try to prove the existence of god. The whole concept of god is that you have to believe in him, and that doubt is a sin. In fact according to the new testament denying the existence of god is the only sin that can not be forgiven.... you can be a sadistic pedofile and you'll be ok if you believe, but if you deny the existence of god you can't be saved. And trying to rpove the existence of god, may not be denying his existence, but it's definately doubting it... the whole point of religion is that you shouldn't need proof, you either believe or you don't.

Personaly an atheist, so I'm going to hell, but I have no problem with faith at all, in fact I wish people had a litle more faith in eachother, and generaly believeing in "goodness" is a great thing I believe. I don't believe in evil though, but I do believe in a-holes.
But I think believing in scriptures written by many different people from different times, with different motives, views and morals... is misguided.
Faith and scriptures/organized religion are 2 VERY different things. The church is responsible for a very large amount of murders and wars, not to mention torture and opression. For any good thing in life there will always be someone trying to exploit it, having faith in a higher power can be harmless as long as you don't have blind faith in other humans. Faith in humans is good, give people a chance if you can afford it, but never have blind faith in someone unless you know them VERY VERY VERY well... and you never know people as well as you think.

Offline Testlund

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« Reply #145 on: January 03, 2009, 11:49:33 AM »
Well said, Moonfisher.
If one consider life as limited it tends to give it more value, doesn't it? You don't have time to follow false ideas and you're better off listening to you're own heart and desires, instead of others dictating what you should do and think. Religion is upholded by fear of going to hell and hopes for another better life than we have, instead of trying to improve this life for ourselves and others. An illusion and enslavement of the mind.
« Last Edit: January 03, 2009, 11:51:35 AM by Testlund »
The internet is corrupt and controlled by criminally minded people.

Offline Numsgil

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« Reply #146 on: January 03, 2009, 04:10:50 PM »
Quote from: Moonfisher
I don't see why anyone who is religious would try to prove the existence of god. The whole concept of god is that you have to believe in him, and that doubt is a sin. In fact according to the new testament denying the existence of god is the only sin that can not be forgiven.... you can be a sadistic pedofile and you'll be ok if you believe, but if you deny the existence of god you can't be saved. And trying to rpove the existence of god, may not be denying his existence, but it's definately doubting it... the whole point of religion is that you shouldn't need proof, you either believe or you don't.

Totally a side point, but that scripture in the new testament can be interpreted to mean that if you know God exists and deny him, you can't be forgiven.  Meaning not faith, but like God personally shakes your hand and buys you a cadillac.  Like with Judas betraying Jesus.  Presumably because it demonstrates that you're a first class ass hole.

Also, while some Christian sects say you need to believe in Jesus to be saved (that your faith alone saves you), there are others which base salvation on works as well, so a murderer, even one who believes, would still have a hard time getting in to heaven (they could be forgiven, but presumably it'd be a lot of work).  I think the former is more Protestant, and the latter more Catholic, but I could be wrong on those points.

And there are yet others which view salvation as freely given to everyone, regardless of belief or works, as a universal gift to mankind through Jesus.  Point being, Christian doctrine has many variations, so it's hard to make broad generalizations about what exactly Christians believe, and what exactly happens to non believers.  As an atheist it's still possible to go to heaven even not believing in God or Jesus depending on which sect is correct (though you'd think if you're dead and in heaven it'd be hard not to believe).

Offline Moonfisher

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« Reply #147 on: January 06, 2009, 09:46:56 AM »
Well sure you COULD choose to believe that you can't be saved if you deny god knowing he exists... but I realy doubt that was the intention fo the writer.
And I think the new testament only applies to protestants, and people choose to believe or interpret it in different ways.
But most of the time it's pretty obvious what the intention of a scripture was, and while a lot of poeple choose a more politicaly correct interpretation, most of us know what the guy who wrote it realy ment. Even the most cryptic scriptures often have a very clear motive and message to them, because back when they where written people where pretty thick, so you had to spell it out for them.
Never been fond of scriptures since they're usualy written by someone with a questionable motive.

What realy bug me is that today you see the same thing within science. If you ask a team of scientists to come up with a specific answer to a question, they will... since they know that any other answer will get them fired. You don't even need scientists, you can just get a lot of poeple to sign a piece of paper and claim they're scientists... and it won't matter if the scientific comunity is buying it, since the media are the gateway to the general population, so if you can convince the media of a certain fact, or convince them that it's in their best interest to make people believe in a certain fact, then you can make the majority believe almost anything, or merely give the impression that this is what the majority believe wich will be enough to gain the political leverage you need.
By now I'm so confused the best measure I have to tell if someone is telling the truth is how much money they make on what they're saying... the more money they make the less likely I am to believe them. (I think the ICCP have come up with the greates conn of the century)