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Crows are pretty damn smart

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Testlund:
Well said, Moonfisher.
If one consider life as limited it tends to give it more value, doesn't it? You don't have time to follow false ideas and you're better off listening to you're own heart and desires, instead of others dictating what you should do and think. Religion is upholded by fear of going to hell and hopes for another better life than we have, instead of trying to improve this life for ourselves and others. An illusion and enslavement of the mind.

Numsgil:

--- Quote from: Moonfisher ---I don't see why anyone who is religious would try to prove the existence of god. The whole concept of god is that you have to believe in him, and that doubt is a sin. In fact according to the new testament denying the existence of god is the only sin that can not be forgiven.... you can be a sadistic pedofile and you'll be ok if you believe, but if you deny the existence of god you can't be saved. And trying to rpove the existence of god, may not be denying his existence, but it's definately doubting it... the whole point of religion is that you shouldn't need proof, you either believe or you don't.
--- End quote ---

Totally a side point, but that scripture in the new testament can be interpreted to mean that if you know God exists and deny him, you can't be forgiven.  Meaning not faith, but like God personally shakes your hand and buys you a cadillac.  Like with Judas betraying Jesus.  Presumably because it demonstrates that you're a first class ass hole.

Also, while some Christian sects say you need to believe in Jesus to be saved (that your faith alone saves you), there are others which base salvation on works as well, so a murderer, even one who believes, would still have a hard time getting in to heaven (they could be forgiven, but presumably it'd be a lot of work).  I think the former is more Protestant, and the latter more Catholic, but I could be wrong on those points.

And there are yet others which view salvation as freely given to everyone, regardless of belief or works, as a universal gift to mankind through Jesus.  Point being, Christian doctrine has many variations, so it's hard to make broad generalizations about what exactly Christians believe, and what exactly happens to non believers.  As an atheist it's still possible to go to heaven even not believing in God or Jesus depending on which sect is correct (though you'd think if you're dead and in heaven it'd be hard not to believe).

Moonfisher:
Well sure you COULD choose to believe that you can't be saved if you deny god knowing he exists... but I realy doubt that was the intention fo the writer.
And I think the new testament only applies to protestants, and people choose to believe or interpret it in different ways.
But most of the time it's pretty obvious what the intention of a scripture was, and while a lot of poeple choose a more politicaly correct interpretation, most of us know what the guy who wrote it realy ment. Even the most cryptic scriptures often have a very clear motive and message to them, because back when they where written people where pretty thick, so you had to spell it out for them.
Never been fond of scriptures since they're usualy written by someone with a questionable motive.

What realy bug me is that today you see the same thing within science. If you ask a team of scientists to come up with a specific answer to a question, they will... since they know that any other answer will get them fired. You don't even need scientists, you can just get a lot of poeple to sign a piece of paper and claim they're scientists... and it won't matter if the scientific comunity is buying it, since the media are the gateway to the general population, so if you can convince the media of a certain fact, or convince them that it's in their best interest to make people believe in a certain fact, then you can make the majority believe almost anything, or merely give the impression that this is what the majority believe wich will be enough to gain the political leverage you need.
By now I'm so confused the best measure I have to tell if someone is telling the truth is how much money they make on what they're saying... the more money they make the less likely I am to believe them. (I think the ICCP have come up with the greates conn of the century)

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