Author Topic: Black smokers  (Read 2138 times)

Offline shvarz

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Black smokers
« on: March 22, 2005, 12:53:44 AM »
It seems like the whole black smokers idea is not going to work.  At least I don't see a way to do that.  Here is why: we can't model all the fun stuff about them.

The bacteria that live near black smokers use the released H2S or plain sulfur (S) as a source of energy.  They basically burn the stuff using oxygen.  What comes out is sulfuric acid H2SO4.  The concentration of acid is so high that sometimes it creates pH of 1.  Maybe later we'll model the effect of acidity on bots, but for now we don't have that.

Then there is the issue of oxygen.  The problem is that H2S will react with O2 on its own, without any bacteria.  So the niche for bacteria is very narrow - the area that still has a lot of H2S but already has some free O2.  We don't have a way to deal with gas pressures and chemical reactions within env. grid for now. So that has to go either.

So, what can we model?  We can model a molecular source of energy that has a steep gradient.  That's all.  If you guys want that - it is very easy to add.  But it is not going to differ much from being just another energy-rich molecule, except for a fancy name.  Having a single unlimited source of glucose would give the same effect.

So I say we postpone the black smokers idea for a while, until we get effects of temperature, pH, and spontaneous chemical reactions incorporated into the program.

What do you think?
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Offline Numsgil

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Black smokers
« Reply #1 on: March 22, 2005, 02:40:09 AM »
I'd say to tentatively work out the reactions that're going on, so if (when) we add those things they'll have something of a framework to hang off of.

I'm in agreance that we need some way to model temperature and spontaneous reactions within the program.  pH I'm not so sure about, but then I'm not really a chemist so it doesn't really interest me.  Chemists might decide that such a thing would be cool, but for me I'm happy to just fudge it.

Offline PurpleYouko

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Black smokers
« Reply #2 on: March 22, 2005, 08:48:51 AM »
We may be able to model smokers in a different way.

Temperature in th e-grid should be easy enough to model so maybe we can use that to create the hot smoker environmental niche. All we would need is to add a way for robots to read the temperature from the grid and that will be easy enough.

 :D  PY  :D
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Offline shvarz

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Black smokers
« Reply #3 on: March 22, 2005, 10:52:15 AM »
Adding the actual reaction is extremely easy.  It is basically a chemical reaction of burning H2S:

H2S + 2 O2 = H2SO4

Only bacteria somehow couple it to energy production.  So for our purposes it would be:

H2S + O2 = H2SO4 + ATP

A stand-alone reaction, not connected to anything else.  Would be extremely easy to do.  So we agree that we leave it off for now?
"Never underestimate the power of stupid things in big numbers" - Serious Sam

Offline Numsgil

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Black smokers
« Reply #4 on: March 22, 2005, 11:13:34 AM »
On.  Off.  Either way really.  It's trivial to add or not at this point.

Offline Botsareus

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Black smokers
« Reply #5 on: March 22, 2005, 02:04:12 PM »
ehm (add) ehm .... (I need a gas feeding robot here in some way) ehm...

Offline PurpleYouko

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Black smokers
« Reply #6 on: March 22, 2005, 02:18:01 PM »
Provided that it uses a viable energy pathway the no problem. The e-grid can carry as many gasses as needed. It has infinite depth (within reason anyway)

Anyhow, what gas do you want?

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Offline Botsareus

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« Reply #7 on: March 22, 2005, 02:34:22 PM »
I want any funny lookin' gas , that slowly runs out in the grid.
The robots can use this gas for energy instead of plants, For more info read the 50/50system (again).

The gas can be called "Tirobaruselitezode" for all I care.

Quote from 50/50system post:
Quote
When the robot it under design , It set Metabolize a sertain gas in the e-grid that will eventually expire.
When it does expire , the robots will be forsed to evolve:
« Last Edit: March 22, 2005, 02:36:22 PM by Botsareus »

Offline Numsgil

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Black smokers
« Reply #8 on: March 22, 2005, 02:46:44 PM »
In what I'm thinking, it should be trivial to add some custom substances and reactions.  You can invent any systems you like and run simulations on them.

Offline Botsareus

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« Reply #9 on: March 22, 2005, 02:50:09 PM »
No, No, They sayed it was possible with "Methane" so I am waiting for that to happen.

Offline Numsgil

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« Reply #10 on: March 22, 2005, 03:05:02 PM »
There are some methane reactions.  My point is that the final system will be trivial to add reactions and substances.  Easier than even a sysvar.  Closer to sharing bots.

Offline Botsareus

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« Reply #11 on: March 22, 2005, 03:18:00 PM »
Quote
In what I'm thinking, it should be trivial to add some custom substances and reactions. You can invent any systems you like and run simulations on them.

If you Num, or Py will add that , It will be very sweet,  I actualy like the idea.