Author Topic: PY's version of metabolism  (Read 4439 times)

Offline shvarz

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PY's version of metabolism
« on: March 18, 2005, 06:41:36 PM »
I figured I'd post this separately for people to discuss:



here is one way to do it.

Infinite (almost anyway) kinds of enzymes defined in hexidecimal bit patterns and stored in a pattern at the end of the DNA. User programmable and mutates.

At the start of the sim or when a robot is born, the list of enzymes contained in the pattern is scanned into the robots enzyme array and all present enzymes are turned on for that robot.

The robot shoots normally.

It diverges into two different possible systems at this point.

Method 1

   1. Enzymes in stomach
   2. Undigested food comes back in the returned -2 shot.
   3. If the necessary enzymes are present the food is digested automatically else they are added to the waste of the robot and need to be pooped.


Method 2

   1. Enzymes in shots.
   2. All enzymes possible for this robot are present in the shot that it fires.
   3. Target bot is partially digested by the shot provided that the correct enzymes are present in it, and according to their efficiency rate.
   4. Returned -2 shot contains energy just like it does now.
   5. Energy goe into a storage stomach where it is slowly absorbed by the robot. Excess energy is lost to the e-grid as waste or heat or anything we like.


No direct DNA control at all. Everything behind the scenes and fully automated yet also able to evolve with successive generations.
"Never underestimate the power of stupid things in big numbers" - Serious Sam

Offline shvarz

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PY's version of metabolism
« Reply #1 on: March 18, 2005, 06:50:45 PM »
I personally don't like this idea for its flatness.  Everything is directly linked to energy.  it will be

protein<->nrg
carb<->nrg
shell<->nrg

and so on.

The whole evolution will be limited to finding enzymes with the best efficiency and then choosing among them (Nums will do the hashing algorith, so he can avoid the hassle all together and simpl design the best possible enzymes :)  )  Then where do you go from there?  You add another

stuff<->nrg

possibility, and another and another.  You can never have multi-step reactions.  Or if you do, you mess up all existing bots.

In my opinion it is better to mess up all exisitng bots now, if that means that we'll get open-ended system that allows unlimited complexity and variation in metabolisms.
"Never underestimate the power of stupid things in big numbers" - Serious Sam

Offline PurpleYouko

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PY's version of metabolism
« Reply #2 on: March 18, 2005, 07:42:07 PM »
It doesn't have to be energy!

It can come back as generic food to be digested and converted into protein. It doesn't matter what we call it. The stuff can still be processed with the make break system.

Existing bots will just have direct access to the most inefficient methods that don't require making or breaking preoteins.

ie. they will still survive OK without modification but newer and better designed/mutated bots will have the advantage.

 :D  PY  :D
« Last Edit: March 18, 2005, 07:44:38 PM by PurpleYouko »
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Offline Zelos

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« Reply #3 on: March 19, 2005, 01:25:16 AM »
I think method 1 is the best shvarz. most animals I see eat and then digest, yeah yeah I know there are those who throw up the stomach acid and digest the food and then eat it. but still think the method 1 is best. and I agree it shall be a unlimited amount of choices and complexity, it makes things funnies :D
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Offline shvarz

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« Reply #4 on: March 19, 2005, 01:44:38 AM »
Thanks for input zelos.  I also think that bots should get lots of different stuff in thier stomach and discard whatever they can't digest.

The major point of our argument is how much of metabolism must/can be controlled from DNA.  What are you thoughts on that?
"Never underestimate the power of stupid things in big numbers" - Serious Sam

Offline Zelos

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« Reply #5 on: March 19, 2005, 02:50:52 AM »
my thought about that, give me a few minutes to think.

okey im done. if you want it to be controlled by dna, you could maybe if there is max 7 enzymes a bot can carry, you could add .mkenzyme1-7. if you want to check if something is in the stomach it could be .stomach whit the chemical formula infront of it. like this:
Code: [Select]
cond
' check if its there, = it is != its not
C6H12O6 *.stomach =
O2 *.stomach =
start
' this tells the bot to make 50 of the enzyme 1
50 .mkenzyme1
stop
then we have 50 enzymes that work, but what about if there is less than 50 molecyles or 50 mol of molecyles? havent I wasted energy on making to mmany enzymes then? for that we could like make the .stomach command able to check amount, like:
Code: [Select]
cond
C6H12O6 *.stomach 50 >
' is there 50 of glycose
O2 *.stomach 50 >
' is there 50 of O2
start
50 .mkenzyme1
stop
in here > is for the amount, but to check it only need any1 of the check things, that isnt !=, to check if something isnt there, just type O2 .stomach 0 != this mean there shall be no oxygen. its just an idea I came up whit fast, how about it?
When I have the eclipse cannon under my control there is nothing that can stop me from ruling the world. And I wont stop there. I will never stop conquering worlds through the universe. All the worlds in the universe will belong to me. All the species in on them will be my slaves. THE ENIRE UNIVERSE WILL BELONG TO ME AND EVERYTHING IN IT :evil: AND THERE IS NOTHING ANYONE OF you CAN DO TO STOP ME. HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA

Offline PurpleYouko

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PY's version of metabolism
« Reply #6 on: March 19, 2005, 11:35:47 AM »
I still think this is horribly overcomplicated.
It will discourage new people from designing bots due to the complexity and it will invalidate every robot that has already been made over the years.

I can easily live with Sharz's idea about manually controlling some reactions with the make and break operators.
The trouble is that if we adopt the idea of enzyme bit patterns then there will be close to infinite different possible enzymes. You couldn't even come close to controlling them all manually from DNA

The idea behind this is that there will be a simple but inneficient path built into the program for robots that haven't specifically been set up for V3.x (when whatever new system we choose is incorporated)

This allows for as much complexity as you like without actually changing much about the DNA or destroying all the old bots.

I was also thinking last night that there really should be some sysvar command that actively takes food from the e-grid. Something like filter feeding. Gasses would need to be automatically exchanged all the time but food particles would need a command like .filter or .gather to actively feed

 <_<  PY  <_<
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Offline Numsgil

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« Reply #7 on: March 22, 2005, 03:26:03 AM »
I'm leaning towards method two, but I see arguments against it because it does not allow multistep reactions easily.

Something of a dilemma.

The question, though, is are there any multi-step digestion processes that don't involve internal metabolism?  As I've said before we really have two related but distinct systems.

If -6 shots returned:

A-> B

can't we have any multistep B->C reactions occur internally, seperate from the digestion process which returns the raw material B?

Offline PurpleYouko

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« Reply #8 on: March 22, 2005, 09:53:18 AM »
I would have said that multi-step processes would still be available using method 2. The only difference I see is that actual enzyme digestion takes place outside the stomach. This way you will get a lot less unwanted material back because enzyme-loaded shots will only digest certain types of material from the target.

Once digested sludgey food gets back to the stomach you still get to work on it with the make/break commands to your heart's content.

I think what caused the problem is that I oversimplified my outline of this method so that energy was returned. What would actually be returned is material which has undergone stage one of enzyme digestion.

I really like this method because the available enzymes in the robot are created by the shoot command and are contained in the shot. We can introduce manual control of enzyme types into shots too.

The shots can be specifically tailored to take specific parts of the target robot. Maybe you only want fat so why waste energy making a normal shot to get chunks of robot containing all manner of stuff when you can specifically target the fat and ignore all the other stuff.

This method could result in specialist slime eaters or shell eaters.

I propose that we actually use both methods. The good old -1 shot will just bring back a whole cross section of stuff to be digested internally, while the -6 shot contains a (custom) mix of enzymes to target specific body parts like muscle, fat or slime. It returns material that has undergone partial digestion and will be cheaper to process further.

Multi-step digestion process with part one either in the stomach or in the shot.

 :D  PY  :D
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Offline Numsgil

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« Reply #9 on: March 22, 2005, 10:53:41 AM »
I'd like to keep the -1 shots as targeting nrg in the enemy bot.  They represent the most primitive form of feeding.

If we want two kinds of shots, one to feed selectively and another to feed by getting stuff in the stomach, I'd vote to make it its own -8 shot.

The first part though, about returning the first stage in the reeaction, I like 100%  It gets my vote.

Offline PurpleYouko

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« Reply #10 on: March 22, 2005, 12:55:53 PM »
That is certainly a neat idea. Keep the -1 shots for the oldies. They can still get energy directly, completely bypassing stomachs and enzymes. (will need to be weakened a bit)

But.....

This has to be a very inefficient way to feed when compared to either -6 shots (bringing a cross section of undigested food to the stomach)
Or -8 shots containing a custom selection of enzymes that return a semi-digested goo of only the specifically targetted material.

Fully backward compatible with zero changes necessary in old bots, yet expandable into the distant future as we complicate stuff more and more.

Sweeeeeeet  :clap:

 :D  PY  :D
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Offline Numsgil

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« Reply #11 on: March 22, 2005, 01:30:57 PM »
If oyu think about it, just feeding on energy with -1 shots will be fairly weak in comparison because fat and carbs will hold alot more enrgy than nrg does.

If I get back 1 carb or 1 nrg, I will want the carb.

That said, -1 shots, powered up, could be a good 'head-shot' esque weapon.  If the bot dies of shock, you get a corpse to feed from without worrying about it fighting back.

If you notice alot of typos lately, it's because I'm typing on a new keyboard, and the keys have different presures than I'm used to.
« Last Edit: March 22, 2005, 01:31:41 PM by Numsgil »

Offline shvarz

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« Reply #12 on: March 22, 2005, 03:02:24 PM »
Agree completely.

P.S: Just had to put a word in.  Off to work...
"Never underestimate the power of stupid things in big numbers" - Serious Sam

Offline PurpleYouko

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« Reply #13 on: March 22, 2005, 04:10:00 PM »
Looks like we may have reached a general agreement then. Right?

 :laugh:  PY  :laugh:
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Offline Numsgil

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« Reply #14 on: March 22, 2005, 04:45:30 PM »
Yay!