Author Topic: Suggestion about fixed bots  (Read 3736 times)

Offline Testlund

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Suggestion about fixed bots
« on: November 13, 2006, 12:20:53 PM »
I think bots shouldn't be able to appear on top of each other which makes several hundred bots look like one bot. Even if they are fixed they should still bump away from each other or at least only stay very close and form colonies. Anyone agrees?
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Offline EricL

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Suggestion about fixed bots
« Reply #1 on: November 13, 2006, 01:10:11 PM »
The whole concept of a fixed bot is kind of weird IMHO and is inelegant and unrealistic from a physcis perspective (so are moving shapes BTW).  As an example, fixed bots are treated as if they mass 32000 for the purposes of collision elasticity.

Fixed veggies used to be important for topological reasons, creating poor-man's walled nursuries for zero bots for example, but shapes can fill that role now.

Having fixed veggies is interesting as a means of creating topological separtion and thus species isolation in large evo sims, but since fixed bots can be unfixed, this is only so effective for so long.  Fixed veggies get unfixed after a few million cycles for example in my southpacific sim as soon as some bot mutates to shoot the right memory shot.  Were I to do such a sim again, I would use shapes to acheive topological isolatiuon.

About the only thing I like about the whole concept of being fixed it is that it enables a class of bots which use it as a proxy for gripping and ungripping the surface as a means of locomotion such as Inchworm.

Perhaps what we need is to do away with the whole concept of fixed all togther and replace it with a mechanism that allows bots to change their coeffecient of static friction as a means of rooting themselves.  This would allow for rooted plants and inchworm style bot motivation, but such bots could still be displaced soem ways by a large enough impact.  Note that my vision for shapes is that they too will have mass proportional to their size and that it will be possible for the shape itself to be the one deflected...

Anyway, in the near term, I could probably make it so that fixed veggies separate until they don't overlap when a shape sweeps them or when they materialize or teleport on top of one another.  Moving shapes would still sweep them into clumps, but the clumps would not overlap, at least not for long.
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Offline Numsgil

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Suggestion about fixed bots
« Reply #2 on: November 13, 2006, 03:36:36 PM »
Oops, I wrote up a post about this just now in another thread   linky

It solves the problem of overlapping, and I think that's how the physics in the C++ fork works.

As to wether the whole concept of ties makes any sense at all, I agree some sort of "griping" function is a good idea and can largely replace being fixed as it is now.  Some caveats though: if we go into 3D, bots would need to be against a wall or shape for this to really make any sense.  In 2D it can be everywhere if we imagine the bots as marbles on a pane of glass, but doesn't make much sense if bots are in a fishbowl, and the world is a side on view.  In those cases, fluid dynamics would be the thing to exploit.  Gigantic light weight bots are going to have a great deal of added mass, which should make them increasingly "fixed".

Make of that what you will
« Last Edit: November 13, 2006, 03:39:36 PM by Numsgil »

Offline Sprotiel

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Suggestion about fixed bots
« Reply #3 on: November 13, 2006, 08:32:08 PM »
Quote from: Numsgil
Gigantic light weight bots are going to have a great deal of added mass, which should make them increasingly "fixed".
Did I ever say that "added mass" was a physically unrealistic and silly concept? If not, that's an oversight corrected. However, changing your sentence to "Gigantic light weight bots are going to experience a great deal of drag, which should make them increasingly "fixed"." saves your argument, so I'm just nitpicking.

Anyway, EricL's plan sounds fine, though I'd rather consider shapes as walls and don't care much about they should move.

Offline Numsgil

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Suggestion about fixed bots
« Reply #4 on: November 13, 2006, 08:50:20 PM »
Added mass isn't an unrealistic concept at all.  Just because you've never heard of it before...  I wrote the wiki article on it, feel free to go check it out here.  The talk page has a nice dialogue between me and another naysayer that should convince you that I'm not just making things up

Offline Jez

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Suggestion about fixed bots
« Reply #5 on: November 14, 2006, 06:19:24 PM »
Quote from: Testlund
I think bots shouldn't be able to appear on top of each other which makes several hundred bots look like one bot. Even if they are fixed they should still bump away from each other or at least only stay very close and form colonies. Anyone agrees?

Yessir!

My thoughts are that there should be a cost associated with being fixed, something I have no problem with, and that if a bot bumps into a fixed bot the cost to remain fixed should rise proportionally.

Changing fixed to a
Quote
coeffecient of static friction
sounds cool but I haven't got my thinking hat on so I'm not going to work out what that actually means for now.  
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Offline Testlund

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Suggestion about fixed bots
« Reply #6 on: November 14, 2006, 07:09:21 PM »
Quote from: EricL
The whole concept of a fixed bot is kind of weird IMHO and is inelegant and unrealistic from a physcis perspective (so are moving shapes BTW).

Imagine that DB is a square shaped dish with a few millimeter water depth and the shapes are flat rocks and weed slowly drifting around, and the bots live in between.  
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Offline Sprotiel

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Suggestion about fixed bots
« Reply #7 on: November 15, 2006, 10:44:21 AM »
Quote from: Numsgil
Added mass isn't an unrealistic concept at all.  Just because you've never heard of it before...  I wrote the wiki article on it, feel free to go check it out here.  The talk page has a nice dialogue between me and another naysayer that should convince you that I'm not just making things up
Well, I stand corrected, it does make sense. But it opens a very big can of worms: the calculation is only valid for an isolated sphere. If you put two bots close together, there are many effects of the same magnitude that should be taken into account as well.

Offline Numsgil

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Suggestion about fixed bots
« Reply #8 on: November 15, 2006, 05:05:51 PM »
Quote from: Sprotiel
Well, I stand corrected, it does make sense. But it opens a very big can of worms: the calculation is only valid for an isolated sphere. If you put two bots close together, there are many effects of the same magnitude that should be taken into account as well.

Yep, but fluid mechanics quickly gets insane.  Blood starts seeping from your ears.  And then you realize that Darwinbots isn't about fluid mechanics and you've researched so much and most of it hardly matters at all.  And then your mind explodes.

If you would like to tackle the problem of fluid physics in general, I'll support you 100%.