Author Topic: Ties in 2.4  (Read 7600 times)

Offline Elite

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Ties in 2.4
« Reply #15 on: June 22, 2006, 11:57:26 AM »
I've been digging for old threads, and there's some great ideas down there  

Quote from: PurpleYouko
Numsgil and I actually had a discussion along these lines once before.
The general consensus was that making the system work with two numbers on top of the stack would be detrimental to evolutionary advances since it makes the chances of evolving a specific sequence a lot lower.
I could be wrong though. It was quite a while ago but as far as I remember that was the reason I used the tie controls the way they are now.
I believe that this is the discussion you are refering to:
New Tie Structures

And there's some more discussion here too:
Tieports

Quote from: PurpleYouko
Very few robots (probably all my own) have really utilized the tieport controls anyway.
Personally, I find them extremely useful. They are powerful because you can control multiple ties in one cycle.

Offline PurpleYouko

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Ties in 2.4
« Reply #16 on: June 22, 2006, 03:41:21 PM »
Quote
I believe that this is the discussion you are refering to:
New Tie Structures

Yup that's the one. As you can see my idea was very similar to your own. Only difference is that I put my address variable on the stack after the command. Otherwise identical.

Quote
Personally, I find them extremely useful. They are powerful because you can control multiple ties in one cycle.
So do I.
Have you ever tried making a bot that crawls by swinging two arms forward and out, fixing them with fix pos then contracting and swinging them back to pull the main body forward.
You can stear it by moving one side or the other different distances.
I tried this once in combination with a trailing veggie for energy. I didn't really spend much time on it though. It was called T-Swimmer but I can't seem to find its code any more.  
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Offline Elite

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Ties in 2.4
« Reply #17 on: June 22, 2006, 03:59:42 PM »
Quote from: PurpleYouko
Yup that's the one. As you can see my idea was very similar to your own. Only difference is that I put my address variable on the stack after the command. Otherwise identical.
Yeah, I really think this would be a good idea. How about a poll to see what the general concensus is?

Quote from: PurpleYouko
So do I.
Have you ever tried making a bot that crawls by swinging two arms forward and out, fixing them with fix pos then contracting and swinging them back to pull the main body forward.
You can stear it by moving one side or the other different distances.
I tried this once in combination with a trailing veggie for energy. I didn't really spend much time on it though. It was called T-Swimmer but I can't seem to find its code any more.  
Sounds interesting. Using ties for movement is much overlooked, don't you think? It tends to be the realm of very developed and complex MBs.

It's been a while since I programmed some serious MBs so I think I'll give a tie-mover a go  

I think I'll also give a new league a go - no movement commands allowed, only ties

Offline Elite

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« Reply #18 on: June 22, 2006, 05:49:58 PM »
Wow  
Just take a look at this
This is just an early prototype, so it just moves continuously in a straight line, but it doesn't half look cool  

Offline Numsgil

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« Reply #19 on: June 23, 2006, 12:31:48 AM »
When I run it the ties just dissapear.
-------------------------------
I'm relatively close to getting the C++ version tie friendly, if you'd like to clear your calender to start playing/testing it for me

I'm probably going to finish at the end of the month with a general release Alpha.

Offline Elite

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« Reply #20 on: June 23, 2006, 11:49:24 AM »
Quote from: Numsgil
When I run it the ties just dissapear.
Unfortunately something in 2.4 prevents it from working  
It only works in 2.37.6

Quote from: Numsgil
I'm relatively close to getting the C++ version tie friendly, if you'd like to clear your calender to start playing/testing it for me

I'm probably going to finish at the end of the month with a general release Alpha.
I can have a go at programming a bot in your new tie system  

The wiki says your new tie paradigm sysvar .tieangle is a read sysvar. Am I right in thinking that it will change the angle of a tie when you write to it?
« Last Edit: June 23, 2006, 11:49:45 AM by Elite »

Offline EricL

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Ties in 2.4
« Reply #21 on: June 23, 2006, 11:54:34 AM »
Quote from: Elite
Unfortunately something in 2.4 prevents it from working  
It only works in 2.37.6

The swimming routine in 2.4 was never ported.  It's commented out and still uses 2.36 physics.  No acceleration forces are calculated in 2.4 due to tie actions on a fluid medium.

I noticed this in the source long ago and it's been on my list to port, but never high enough.
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Offline Numsgil

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Ties in 2.4
« Reply #22 on: June 23, 2006, 12:32:21 PM »
Quote from: Elite
The wiki says your new tie paradigm sysvar .tieangle is a read sysvar. Am I right in thinking that it will change the angle of a tie when you write to it?

 Nope.  I'm not sure of the exact mechanics, but in order to change the angle between[ ties you'll need to use another command I'm still figuring out.  Basically I'm trying to get it to work like muscles in the human body do, with ties being the bone.
 
 To change the angle between a bot and a tie, you'd just need to unlock the bot, and the bot can swivel like a ball bearing.
 
 
Quote
The swimming routine in 2.4 was never ported. It's commented out and still uses 2.36 physics. No acceleration forces are calculated in 2.4 due to tie actions on a fluid medium.

I noticed this in the source long ago and it's been on my list to port, but never high enough.

 I could never figure out the real life math.  The way 2.37 handles swimming forces has some issues I'm not happy with.  If you check that New Tie Paradigm page on the wiki you can see my best current guess.  Sprotiel, I believe, thought I had it wrong and presents another method.  They're not directly comparable, however, as we make different base assumptions (mine being more general).

Offline PurpleYouko

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« Reply #23 on: June 27, 2006, 11:33:43 AM »
Quote
This is just an early prototype, so it just moves continuously in a straight line, but it doesn't half look cool cool.gif
Sweet isn't it?

That is very much how T-Swimmer did it as well.
The difference was that he had a trailing veggie for energy.
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Offline abyaly

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Ties in 2.4
« Reply #24 on: September 06, 2006, 10:18:23 PM »
I worked on a worm-like mb that used .setaim to move, but it doesnt have very precise food hunting ability. It swivels the head back and forth to approach the target (the tail follows the directions of the head in this sense), but while doing so it often loses sight of the target ^^
« Last Edit: September 06, 2006, 10:19:24 PM by abyaly »
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Offline PurpleYouko

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« Reply #25 on: September 13, 2006, 09:03:49 AM »
I had the same kind of problems with Inchworm. I managed to get it working reasonably well by using .dx and .sx to shuffle the head sideways in order to zoom in on food.

I wonder if a T kind of bot could do it by means of shortening and legthening the ties to each side of the T while the ends of it are anchored. I would really like to get away from any use of .sx, .dx, .up and .dn in the design.
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Offline Numsgil

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« Reply #26 on: September 13, 2006, 02:39:40 PM »
I would be very interested in seeing an evosim with a MB that doesn't use .up, .dn., .dx, or .sx to move.  Then turn the Movement Efficiency to 0 so that it can't devolve into single celled creatures.

I imagine the MB would still "break", but I'd love to see how it does so.  My guess is that it would learn to use ties as slings to catupult themselves around the sim.