Finaly 3.0 is somewhat out (and stuff)

[Botsareus]

That either species is dying out doesn't make much sense, especially after so few cycles. The answer to why the mutating version can't beat the non mutating version in F1 mode is simple: the mutated version must not be the thing killing off the non mutating version.

I like that one  B)

I mean really look at me , who is this kid big mouthing about revolutionary ideas: that mutation actualy makes bots better, thats why they can beat the robots that do not mutate. (hint: now make mutating robots lose energy artefisialy so they will be worse then non-mutating robots again  ;) ) I mean really what planet is this?

Good News: I got lucky this run finaly , I got a bot5g on my hard disk  :)

Not so good News:

the mutated version [you]must not be the thing [/you]killing off the non mutating version.

The minds of this people , go to love it. Thats why I gave a nice hint so by the next virsion they will find a "fix" to this mutating robots bug , thouse %$ robots...

lol or, hint: lets make  thouse %$ robots gain energy artefidialy that way they will never evolve to be more better then themselfs because they will be better then themselfs already...

better one! hint: Lets mess up that $&&^ mutation system even more , that way thouse robots cant evolve to be better then themselfs because they wont be able to.

for slower Db public  ( I am having a small sarcasm episote)

[Botsareus]

ok I feel better,

Num, So the question then becomes what is killing it off, and why can the mutating version survive it? I think there is no third player here, I think that the mutating robots can beat the non-mutating robots just because the mutating robots addapt to do so.

why can the mutating version survive it? Why did the Dna trasform us to survive the period when there was no longer waste but only photosynthesis and hunting possible?

So I think whats really happening here is that the mutating virsion is addapting to survive its bad offspring or the offspring that evolved to do worse.

Stay tooned for a bot99g or so , witch will finaly beat Din... If there is any more bumbs along the way and if I feal like you guys can help me , I will post the new bugs/laws here.

Btw I did not give away all the rules of my system of evolving bots, There is a rule in the universe that says "History Repeats Itself", there is a solution to this rule as well.  B)

[Botsareus]

There is some kind of bug/law that says non mutating clone does better then mutating clone in different settings.

If mutating clone has defult mutation rates, non mutating clone does worse then mutating clone in same settings but If mutating clone has mutation rates used by itself from the lest run, non mutating clone does better then mutating clone in same settings.

This the stuff I am still having trouble with, If any one is smart enough to figure out how to go arround this problems...

[Numsgil]

It's not a law or a bug, it's just circumstances.  Sometimes it will be true, sometimes not.  It depends.

Your time span is too small for evolution to really create a strong difference between the two.  What you really have is two very similar subspecies.  Less than subspecies even.  Breed might be a better word.

If you were to keep going on and on, eventually you will have two seperate species, likely the mutated version hunting the unmated version very efficiently.

Try setting the unmutated version as a plant.  See what happens, it might make a difference.

But really, like I said before, evolution is too non linear.  It does crazy things that don't make sense to us.  Evolution is not trying to get 'better'.  It's just a mindless system of rules that rewards those who exploit it best.

[Botsareus]

So you saying: If I keep the mutation rates and/or change the energy settings, I have to first evolve the mutated bot agenst the unmutated version as a plant.

Tryed it, the plant kills off the robots. Does not help any of the two problems in anyway...

Anyway

If you were to keep going on and on, eventually you will have two seperate species, likely the mutated version hunting the unmated version very efficiently.

 Hopefully very efficiently enough to take out the tournament bots as well.

[Endy]

Are you talking about the graph for species energy?

I noticed similar spikes like you say and found them linked to population sizes, ie more bots means nrg is divided more evenly amongst them, less bots means more energy held by individual bots. Most of the time I found this to be linked directly to the changing frequency of mutation rates but occasionally it seemed to be waste related(DB's vers of polution :D ).

Generally, from our point of view it is better that the nrg be shared, not only does this mean more chances for intersting behaviors but it also prevents the very few bots remaining with all the nrg suddenly dying out(large spike followed by sudden dip.)

The bot you posted at first glance seems to be geared towards H-nrg enviroments. I am not sure wether it is reproducing randomly or not(storage at val 300) The nrg level required is high, but there are several 300's scattered throughout, which may be activated by a stack overflow. I've seen it go both ways on this one either a high nrg level to cut down competition or a low/rnd nrg level to rapidly spread.

Luck with mutating,

Endy  :bigginangel:

[Botsareus]

Endy You are far more lost there then Num , I wont even bother( yea yea I did bother ) , just delete that stuped post.

 :burnup:  :burnup:  :burnup:

No endy I am not doing what you are doing at all , we are building two different worlds here, figure out what I am doing before you post anything...

Endy , Nice way to piss me off , better then MP

[shvarz]

:clap:

Man, and I thought I was the master of pissing off Bots!

[Botsareus]

Ok Haha , now: num , endy , MP , and shvartz pissed me of in half an hour , new record. Lets see if Henk and PY can catch up.

[Botsareus]

Here is some Server space waste just for you endy.

Num:

Okay, I finally understand what you're doing.

You're loading up two copies of the same species. One has mutations enabled in the mutations panel (that is, they're set to non zero values). The other copy has mutations disabled by pressing the disable mutations button in the mutations panel.

Right?

That either species is dying out doesn't make much sense, especially after so few cycles. The answer to why the mutating version can't beat the non mutating version in F1 mode is simple: the mutated version must not be the thing killing off the non mutating version.

So the question then becomes what is killing it off, and why can the mutating version survive it?

brb ill get more.

Me:

Shvartz:

You started some sim[you] (not F1 settings) [/you]with First bot.

[you] If I did that[/you] then first bot [you]would not win anyway[/you]. There is some kind of bug/law that says even: non mutating clone does better then mutating clone in different settings.

That one means that I run all my latest tests in only F1 settings because going from setting to setting does not work.

[Numsgil]

The idea of setting one as plant was just an idea.  Sorry it didn't work out. :/

[Botsareus]

some more server space waste just for Endy.

Me:

I dont even have to wait until generations evolve to cause the problem. 300 vegs on high resolution means 75 vegs on low resolution , so that change is addapteble: its only from 75 --> 25 vegs. A robot should be able to evolve to survive under new settings, why it does not is what I am trying to figure out.

That talks about a nice little theory I have developed:

A size 2 screen's area is 4 times the area of a size one screen (you can change screen sizes in the settings), furthermore:

if you have 25 vegs in size1 screen that means in size two to keep the energy blance you need 25x4=100 vegs. you see? no see?

So therefore its true in reverse too:

In size two 300 vegs is only 75 vegs in size one.

Hold that thought , I got more:

Me:

There is some kind of bug/law that says non mutating clone does better then mutating clone in different settings.

That means even a small change from 75 to 25 vegs. kills of the mutating clone faster then the nonmutating clone , and therefor messing up the system.

So thats why I Stooooppeeeddd using 75 vegs. and now use [you]only[/you] 25 vegs.
Since I am using size2 , In reality I am using 100 vegs. (Too mutch eh?) But It should not effect the robots in any way , exsept that the distance to the screen boarders is greater, (like the robots care about the boarders)

[Numsgil]

The only logic flaw is that you're assuming that the distribution of vegs in the larger version is the same as the smaller version.  Vegs tend to come together in clumps, so 100 vegs in size 2 is not the same as 25 vegs in size 1.

If a bot manages to find a veg clump in your version it will be disproportionately rewarded compared to finding a clump in F1.

[Botsareus]

Another problem is that the sempling size is too small for the robots to have time to evolve.

Yes Good one Num, that is one of the factors , thx
Turning Blocked off helps with the problem a little. but anyway:

I gess I have no choise exsept to switch to true F1 mode.

Now its time to figure out the mutation rates problem.

[Endy]

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I admit defeat.

Endy