Author Topic: Finaly 3.0 is somewhat out (and stuff)  (Read 20604 times)

Offline PurpleYouko

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Finaly 3.0 is somewhat out (and stuff)
« Reply #15 on: March 08, 2005, 08:57:36 AM »
Quote
The problem (as I already explained it) is that the robot does not mutate new stuff at all

I don't get this!  :blink:

I never did get it!

In every test that I have ever run (and that would be thousands), robots can and do mutate new stuff all the time.

I even built the scripting system to prove it and that is just what it did.

Try putting a simple robot in the sim thae set up a bunch of scripts that pause the game when a robot mutates a new value (some command that isn't in the original). It may take a while but sooner or later one of the robots WILL evolve the new item.

I have performed this test loads of times and it always works, thus proving that robots do evolve new stuff.

Unless we are using different definitions of stuff

 :blink:  PY  :blink:
« Last Edit: March 08, 2005, 08:58:18 AM by PurpleYouko »
There are 10 kinds of people in the world
Those who understand binary.
and those who don't

:D PY :D

Offline Numsgil

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Finaly 3.0 is somewhat out (and stuff)
« Reply #16 on: March 08, 2005, 09:34:06 AM »
Okay, here are some things again:

1.  DB will probably take longer than other AL sims to reach useful mutations because it is so open ended.  Darwinpond (another AL sims) only has like half a dozen different memory locations that can be mutated, each controlling something rather macroscopic about the bot.  In darwinbots, the individual commands are much more specific.

Also, until I get to creating a more realistic probablility distribution for one DNA command to turn into another, you are going to see [span style=\'font-size:30pt;line-height:100%\'][you]MOST[/you][/span] of the mutations be either bad or neutral.  Turning a refeye into a poison will generally break the genes.

2.  Okay, in the one quote where I said unmated, I meant unmutated.

3.  I've seen bots evolve that are better from the ancestors.  Heck, Carlo's original C_Ancestralis evolved into several different bots that were better than the original.  [span style=\'font-size:30pt;line-height:100%\']MUTATIONS DO WORK[/span].  If you can't get them to work than you are doing something [span style=\'font-size:30pt;line-height:100%\']WRONG[/span]

4. If you are not willing to actually wait for mutations and evolution to take hold I strongly recommend finding another AL simulator.  Don't try to say mutations don't work if you only give it half an hour.  The program does not say "gee, what mutation will be the most beneficial?"  Heck, the DNA of most successful bots is hundreds of elements long.  Do you have any idea how long that'd take to accumulate by natural mutations?

Please, before anyone says that mutations don't work, [span style=\'font-size:30pt;line-height:100%\']try running the program for most of an afternoon or even a few days[/span].

How many cycles do you run your mutation sims for?  2000?  Try 3 million cycles.  Then you'll see what I'm talking about.
« Last Edit: March 08, 2005, 09:49:41 AM by Numsgil »

Offline Numsgil

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Finaly 3.0 is somewhat out (and stuff)
« Reply #17 on: March 08, 2005, 10:16:20 AM »
Sorry, teaches me to post right after I wake up (I'm not a morning person).

Here's a bot I mutated:

Code: [Select]
'#name: Hallowers One Gene Bot.txt
'#generation: 28
'#mutations: 20

cond
  *.slime
  26289
  <
  *.nrg
  31996
  <
start
  10
stop

cond
start
  *.eye5
  10
  add
  mult
  7
  div
  sub
  7
  div
  sub
  .up
  store
  *.eye5
  *.eye1
  sub
  *.eye5
  *.eye2
  sub
stop

cond
start
  *.trefdx
  *.eye3
stop

cond
start
  inc
  sub
  *.eye5
  *.eye4
stop

cond
start
  sub
  add
  *.eye4
  sub
  rnd
  add
  add
  add
  4
  div
  *.eye5
  *.eye6
  sub
  *.mass
  rnd
  *.eye7
  sub
  *.eye5
  *.eye8
  sub
  *.eye5
  *.eye9
  sub
  add
  add
  add
  4
  div
  sub
  *.refeye
  1
  add
  mult
  5
stop

cond
start
  store
stop

cond
start
 -6
  7
  *.refup
  sub
  store
  50
  299
  *.ypos
  add
  store
stop
end

'#hash: q?_v/77lB|_r^;CvcNL6

Lotsa stuff in there that's new.  Most of it doesn't make sense at all, but you can see that, yes, new stuff sometimes evolves.
« Last Edit: March 08, 2005, 10:18:21 AM by Numsgil »

Offline Botsareus

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Finaly 3.0 is somewhat out (and stuff)
« Reply #18 on: March 08, 2005, 02:49:25 PM »
Nice lest post Num , ok ok , I am working on it...

Found it , (new post)
« Last Edit: March 08, 2005, 09:14:16 PM by Botsareus »

Offline Botsareus

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« Reply #19 on: March 08, 2005, 07:10:12 PM »
There is a bug in the program that sayes that special mutation rates will do worse then normal once. If I give a bot in the begining its own mutation rates it developed in the lest run, It will do worse then the nonmutating bot. If I give defults witch are ("mofm:2 , 200 , 200 , all 200 , etc.") it will do better then the nonmutating bot.

This mean eather there is a bug or there is some rule of nature that says that defult rates are required for every new match.

At any rate, I have basicaly proven the theory of evolution and now working evolving a bot that can beat Din and the rest of them.

The only problem now is that ("History Repeats Itself") a bot that evolved now does worse agenst a bot 4 runs back then agenst a bot that it evolved agenst. The solution is to save each step of evolution and then evolve the robot agenst multipule bots. That makes me wonder: How well will humens do if the Dinasors are back?
« Last Edit: March 08, 2005, 09:23:22 PM by Botsareus »

Offline Numsgil

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« Reply #20 on: March 09, 2005, 03:29:55 AM »
Quote
There is a bug in the program that sayes that special mutation rates will do worse then normal once.

Huh?

Quote
If I give a bot in the begining its own mutation rates it developed in the lest run, It will do worse then the nonmutating bot. If I give defults witch are ("mofm:2 , 200 , 200 , all 200 , etc.") it will do better then the nonmutating bot.

huh?

Quote
This mean eather there is a bug or there is some rule of nature that says that defult rates are required for every new match.

huh?

Quote
At any rate, I have basicaly proven the theory of evolution and now working evolving a bot that can beat Din and the rest of them.

We all eagerly await.

Quote
The only problem now is that ("History Repeats Itself") a bot that evolved now does worse agenst a bot 4 runs back then agenst a bot that it evolved agenst. The solution is to save each step of evolution and then evolve the robot agenst multipule bots.

huh?

Quote
That makes me wonder: How well will humens do if the Dinasors are back?

Very well actually.  Dinosaurs were very much tropical creatures.  The planet is now much cooler than it was in the jurrasic/triassic/cretaceous periods.  And we're cutting down the tropics every day, enlarging our own habitats and eliminating rival ones.
« Last Edit: March 09, 2005, 03:30:07 AM by Numsgil »

Offline Botsareus

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« Reply #21 on: March 09, 2005, 02:06:18 PM »
False call; I got lucky with some settings thats all.  :(

Here is some more "huh" for you:

Robots require a sertain setting for them to evolve. They wont evolve under different settings. More specifacly a robot evolving under one setting wont evolve if you put them into a different settings.
« Last Edit: March 09, 2005, 02:16:08 PM by Botsareus »

Offline Numsgil

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Finaly 3.0 is somewhat out (and stuff)
« Reply #22 on: March 09, 2005, 04:02:36 PM »
Some settings give more room for bots to mutate than in others.  In real life, not all situations give rise to diversity and complexity.  Harsher environments tend to produce faster evolution.

Instead of making broad accusations about the effectiveness of mutations, why not post your results for different settings and those same settings.

schvarz has run alot of mutation sims, maybe he can help you out finding good bots to use and good settings for them.

Offline Botsareus

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« Reply #23 on: March 10, 2005, 01:04:00 PM »
What happend was a bot evoving with 300 max  vegs and 1600x1200 resolution will no longer evolve in strictly F1 settings.

The main problem as Num sayed is that there is not enough space on the screen for them to evolve.

I tryed keeping F1 settings and higher resolution (since the screen is x4 area of reguler settings , I have 100 max vegs (25*4) etc.) Seams to work ok.

What I am conserned with is that sudden energy changes in the inv. kills mutating bots faster then nonmutating bots. (How will that work on the grid) But I gess I'll find out when 3.0 is out what really happens.

Also dont forget about Good Job I finaly seen a bot that evolved new negative values

Num when you say "huh?" what do you mean? , I think that post is fearly easy to comprehand...
« Last Edit: March 10, 2005, 04:33:56 PM by Botsareus »

Offline Botsareus

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« Reply #24 on: March 10, 2005, 04:41:34 PM »
Ok I am stuck right now again. The Program has created a Bot that Does worse then its nonmutating virsion 99% of the time. I dont know: eather I should post it and let you guys figure it out, or keep trying to mutate it.

This bot does evolve if its in the simulator alone, but I dont know If that will cause it to be better then the original or better then all the other generations that it slowly evolved from. I have a feeling it wont.

 <_< Bau
« Last Edit: March 10, 2005, 04:42:51 PM by Botsareus »

Offline Endy

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« Reply #25 on: March 10, 2005, 04:46:46 PM »
300 plants!? Are you nuts!? You'd over feed the thing giving it that much energy. The bot would have no reason to be efficent and wouldn't hardly even need to search for food. You really need to balance out the sim better to get some worthwhile mutations. I normally keep it basically F1 and then play around with either the physics or pond settings to increase the difficulty. You don't necessarily need "space" to get novel species to evolve, you just need a new area with different challenges in it.

Endy ;)
« Last Edit: March 10, 2005, 04:50:06 PM by Endy »

Offline Numsgil

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« Reply #26 on: March 10, 2005, 04:51:27 PM »
Most of the first bots that mutate from a well established original will be worse.  That's because mutations are BAD.  Evolution is a funny process, going forward and backwards and all around.  Don't think of it as a linear process.  Think of it like a river.  It kind of moves downhill, but it won't take the most direct route, and sometimes it will seem to go backward.  Sometimes something slows it and it forms a large lake.  Eventually, though, dumb luck will find a useful combination that makes the thing fitter, and it will flow on.

If you want a successful mutation sim, start with a bot that can survive, but just barely.  Have it have no bells or whistles, just regular -1 shots and a search and follow gene.  Now minimize the program.  Step away, and don't touch it.

Come back 3 days later.  Is it the same bot?  What new behavior does it exhibit?  What has the population maxed at?

Now, your first question will be 'is it better?'.  Evolution doesn't work like that.  Are we 'better' than bacteria?  Bacteria outnumber us, can survive in much harsher environments than we can, etc.  Whos to say what 'better' is?

Likely, you will just have something new.  It might be better, it might not.  But whatever it is it will be different.

Offline Botsareus

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« Reply #27 on: March 10, 2005, 04:55:00 PM »
"I tryed keeping F1 settings and higher resolution (since the screen is x4 area of reguler settings , I have 100 max vegs (25*4) etc.) Seams to work ok." I think people should start reading all the posts , and all the parts of the post before replying, (no I dont do that myself , ok ok never mind)

No Endy I know this problem wery well , #1 I am using high resoultions when doing 300 vegs #2 I AM CURRENTLY EVOLVING A BOT ONLY IN F1 SETTINGS BECAUSE ACCORDING TO SOME BUG OR lAW:

QUOTE
"What I am conserned with is that sudden energy changes in the inv. kills mutating bots faster then nonmutating bots. "

Inv. = settings 300 ----> 100

why F1: 100vegs not 25vegs , simple :  Higher resolutions = more area = compinsate for increase in area , here quote:

"I tryed keeping F1 settings and higher resolution (since the screen is x4 area of reguler settings , I have 100 max vegs (25*4) etc.) Seams to work ok."

#3 Were is Num , Never mind found him ( he beat me to the post)

#4 READ THE PRIVIUSE POST AND HELP PLEASE... OR TELL ME WHAT TO DO , POST-BOT OR NO POST-BOT

#5 I should go find some jokes to post before we all go insane
« Last Edit: March 10, 2005, 04:56:34 PM by Botsareus »

Offline Botsareus

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« Reply #28 on: March 10, 2005, 05:01:12 PM »
"
If you want a successful mutation sim, start with a bot that can survive, but just barely. Have it have no bells or whistles, just regular -1 shots and a search and follow gene. Now minimize the program. Step away, and don't touch it.

Come back 3 days later. Is it the same bot? What new behavior does it exhibit? What has the population maxed at?
"

Thats what I am basicaly doing, and I was producing "better" bots until now , not by "running a simple mutation sim" but by a system witch I already explained (read posts)

Just tell me to post the original and the evolved bot I am stuck on and I will. Tell me were to post them , in the bistary , or here or were...

Quote
Likely, you will just have something new. It might be better, it might not. But whatever it is it will be different.
I got results like that the first time I ran the program. I know we can get better results from my own experiments  If not: then I would have forgot about DB a long time ago, and I would have never made any of my own mutations sims.
« Last Edit: March 10, 2005, 05:07:17 PM by Botsareus »

Offline Numsgil

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« Reply #29 on: March 10, 2005, 05:14:31 PM »
If the evolved version is different enough to constitute a new species (you be the judge) go ahead and post it in the beastiary.

The bestairy is pretty open, post any bots you can think of.

Here's a bot ripe for evolution.  It is the bare minimum.  (Okay, not minimum, since it manages to beat a couple of the SG league entrants.

Called Animal_Minimalis (I'll post it the the beastiary too).
Code: [Select]
cond
*.eye5 0 >
*.refeye *.myeye !=
start
*.refveldx .dx store
*.refvelup 30 add .up store
stop

cond
*.eye5 50 >
*.refeye *.myeye !=
start
-1 .shoot store
*.refvelup .up store
stop

cond
*.eye5 0 =
*.refeye *.myeye = or
start
314 rnd .aimdx store
stop

cond
*.nrg 20000 >
start
10 .repro store
stop
end

The idea is that it is so minimal that any changes will affect its most basic behaviors.  I'll run some simulations too, see if anyone can get a version from it that exhibits any new behavior (storing to body to get stronger shots, using poison, learning to turn when somethings in eye4, etc.)

Bots, your larger sims are running slowly, right?  3.0 should allow larger sims like that with the new speedups I'm working on.  Larger sims should mean larger population samples, which might mean more interesting mutation sims.