Mutations screwed up

[Testlund]

I got this problem with mutations set differently for each bot than what I have set it in Species -> Mutation rates. It's the same problem as mensioned before where taking a bot from a version prior to 2.42.4 (I think). It's just that these bots had such simple DNA, only zeros, so I don't see why they whould fail to run properly with a newer version. BAH! Maybe I need to write complete new ones with only zeros. It doesn't make sense! Maybe it has gone wrong when the sim was saved....

For instance I have a bot here with strange delta mutations. It shows that it has changed delta mutations from 1 in 10000 (as I have set it in mutation rates) to 1 in 10539. So far ok, but next time it has changed from 1 in 5000 to 1 in 4929. I think somewhere between these delta mutations the mutation rates for all bots have been changed to delfault values instead of the ones I have set up!  

I will write complete new bots and start a new sim and see if the same thing happens.  

[Numsgil]

I'm not sure if this is applicable from your post, but are you loading the bots into your sim through insert organism (and thus using organism files, .dbo I believe) or as text files through the species select window.

What have you done in the interim between the two delta mutations exactly?  Nothing?  Save and load?  etc.

[Testlund]

Yes, and I have tried it again. I wrote complete new bots, deleted old settings files including lastexit.set. I started the program, added the bots and made new settings with different mutation rates. After 300000 cycles I saved the sim, quit the program then loaded it up again and all bots mutation rates are set to 5000 for all mutations for all bots, but that's not what I have set. I have set the mutation rates to be the following:

Point: 100
Copy error: 10000
Reversal: 50000
Delta: 10000
Insertion: 5000
Minor deletion: 10000
Major deletion: 25000

I whould like it to stay that way! It doesn't help to open the GUI and click change either. The mutation rates are different on the species tab than when you right click on the bots and look at them.

[Numsgil]

Eric, it might be a good idea to have something in the program beep at you if a save is saved/loaded incorrectly.  That might catch errors like this.  It sounds like the save is being loaded incorrectly, and is inheriting default mutation values.

[Testlund]

I have also find out that the mutation rates that you set only take effect when you start a new sim. After that it can't be changed. The bots will keep using the same rates as when you started a new sim, until you save and reload. Then it will change to 5000 in all fields. I think this is a serious bug and that Eric should put it into priority, because this makes it hard to run successful evosims. At the beginning I want the bots to have lots of random genes and later when they starts to reproduce I want to slow down the mutation rates. In the mean time I guess I will be stuck with 5000 rates. Boo!  

[shvarz]

I have also find out that the mutation rates that you set only take effect when you start a new sim. After that it can't be changed.

Well, that actually makes sense, because mutation rates are also mutating.  There is no reason to manually change them mid-way, because they have been selected naturally through evolution.  And you can always temporarily increase/decrease mutation rates for the whole sim by changing the "mutation multiplier" (look in the "mutations tab").

[Testlund]

I can't see that mutation rates are mutating. Right-clicking on a bot to show it's mutation rates will display the same mutation rates as I set from the start, OR it will all change to 5000 if I save and load a sim. So what you have is either one fixed rate from the start of the sim, and then another fixed rate when you load it. Also I suspect the mutation rates actually gets disabled and not working at all if you load a saved sim. I think I saw that way back but I don't remember correctly, so I'm going to save a sim now without mutation details and then reload it to see if any new mutations show up.

[shvarz]

What do you have for "Delta mutation" in options?

From your post:

It shows that it has changed delta mutations from 1 in 10000 (as I have set it in mutation rates) to 1 in 10539. So far ok, but next time it has changed from 1 in 5000 to 1 in 4929.

it appears that you have "Delta mutations" enabled, which would allow mutations of mutation rates.  That's why you would see mutation rates change in bots.

[shvarz]

But I agree that mutation rates are replaced with default values when a sim is loaded.  I just loaded a sim that's been running for a very long time and all mutation rates in individual bots are at 5000.

[EricL]

But I agree that mutation rates are replaced with default values when a sim is loaded.  I just loaded a sim that's been running for a very long time and all mutation rates in individual bots are at 5000.

Found this.  Some of the defaulting code I added in 2.42.6 to handle reading in old, corrupted sim files was defaulting the mutation rates after they were read in from the bot file.  Fixed in 2.42.7.

[Testlund]

Wonderful! Otherwise the mutations are working, it's just too slow for my liking right now, even when set to 8x on the mutations tab. I look forward to 2.42.7.  

[Testlund]

It looks like the mutation rates has gone a step backwards in 2.42.6d. When I set a new mutation rate and click change it doesn't get changed for the bots. Right-clicking on the bots still shows the mutation rates it was when I started the sim. Otherwise it works nicely when I save and load the sim. Mutation rates don't go back to default 5000, but I whould like to be able to change the rates over time too.    I don't want to use the setting on the mutation tab. It's not a good function for this kind of sim I'm running, if it even works. I only want to change point mutations over time.

[EricL]

I didn't change anything in this area, but I'll take a look.

[Numsgil]

Once a sim is running, it is impossible to change the mutation rates of bots en masse.  You can change an individual bot's mutation rates by right clicking and finding the option to change that bot's mutation rates.

[Testlund]

Oh, I see. Then it's not a bug. You just haven't implemented it to work that way. Maybe I should have written this in the suggestion topic instead. I think when starting a sim with bots with only zeros I want high point mutation rates to give them lot of DNA variation in a short time. Then when I got some interesting bots I whould like to slow it down, so not as to ruin good DNA that might evolve. Maybe it's possible to implement this later?
In the mean time I think I will go with 5000, and try to be patient.