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Mmog with the goal to survive

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Welwordion:
While reading I stumbled somewhere over the lines, that someeone wished there would be more MMO games where you would need to colonize a world from scratch.
Well I myself also hope for better MMOG out there and I always wished for a game that would concentrate more on the aspect fighting for survival than killing for money exp and loot.
What about you?
What are your wishes for such a game? What features you would want?
Lets just  dream a little and plan or "perfect game" we never find out there.

PurpleYouko:
If you are interested in MMO games then you should probably head on over to Kuro-Tejina where I have a forum set up just for that purpose. The eventual aim is to use the site to launch my own MMORPG so now is a good time to discuss what would be good in such a game.

Numsgil:
I beleive that was me you were reading

Basically it's a game I've wanted to play since spring 2004.  At first I just wanted to find a game like that to play.  As time grows and I couldn't find anything even remotely like that (a few links later on) I've become increasingly ravenous.  If I ever reach a point with Darwinbots where I feel good to take a long break, that's probably what I'd start working on.

There's three ideas I'm balancing in my mind.  Sometimes I confuse them, but I think they're really somewhat different:

1.  Procedural world generation, perhaps even generating a universe of billions of stars with realistically scaled planets you can explore on foot (it's technically feasible, games like Noctis do it).  Such a game would be primarily about exploration.

There aren't any games that are really about exploration except maybe Noctis and the old school Commodore 64 game 7 Cities of Gold (where you were a spanish explorer).

When I was growing up we lived behind Edwards Airforce Base, which was surrounded by wilderness.  A kind of miny forest.  I loved just exploring the forest as a kid.

With a sophisticated procedurally generator you could create a world of sheer aesthetic beauty, that's a joy just to be in.

2.  Survival.  Stay put in the same couple square kilometers and survive starting with absolutely nothing.  Like being dropped naked in a virgin landscape.  In some ways this is sort of similar to River World or Hatchet.

This is something I'd sort of like to do in real life, but really don't have the time for (well, I could probably make the time...)

What I find most alluring is building up some sort of technology level from nothing.  Start with some flint and bones and build up rudimentary technology.  A house, etc.  Master the elements, so to speak.

If this is in an MMO setting, it would be interesting to watch and see if things like currency can develop on their own.  What sort of society rules develop.  And developers should take a non interference role, and just let society go all to pot if that happens.

The basic point is that you can die at any moment.  You can't really "level" your character.  A rock to the head can kill Samson as easily as Goliath.  Your character could be hundreds of days worth of work when he falls victim to food poisoning and dies.  Or he could slip and fall off a cliff.  Or he could drown when he tries swimming too far.  You want the death to be directly a result of the player's actions (instead of just random), but you want it to be permanent.

And then you start over.

The closest game I've found like this is UnReal World, which is unfortunately quite dated (and the guy is something of a copyright Nazi, refusing to release either source and still expecting to be payed for this old game.  I'm not against programmers getting payed for a game, but this game is seriously old).  Though it's still fun, I'd like to see a game like this expanded and refreshed.   A game where you can just live another life.

3.  A "living" world - I don't mean what modern games call living.  I don't mean a static world with maybe a couple of semi-intelligent NPCs going through the motions of life.

Things should matter.  If enough people kill enough deer, deer populations should begin to dwindle, which should effect the behavior and number of wolves.  Maybe wolves begin raiding towns and attacking people and rummaging through garbage.

If I cut down a tree that tree shouldn't regrow in 10 minutes, or 10 hours, or any time.  It's dead.  New trees might grow in its place slowly, having trouble as the ground is chocked with the dead tree's roots.  The process should be long.  If I clear cut an entire grove, it should stay dead.  If I plant an entire grove of trees they should live and grow and reproduce.

The idea is that actions matter, they have some lasting consequence.  Nothing in the world is permanent.  Take Morrowind for instance.  You can't break through walls.  You can't set a bomb and destroy the Temple of Vivic unless it's part of the story.  Even in a "free form" game like that the world feels very static.  I can't get a shovel and dig a hole, or build a dam in the river.  Admitedly that's not the game's point.

Or take most modern MMOs.  You kill an orc in a cave and a new one just appears out of nowhere.  I'd like to see orcs needing to be born from an Orc daddy and an Orc mommy.  And when they get hunted to extinction there's no magic resurection.  You kill all the orcs in the world and orcs are extinct.  You're not going to see another one.

You clear cut all the world's trees and it's an Easter Island/Lorax disaster.  No game developer is going to plop another one down for you.  Tough luck bucko.

Alot of these things are rather far fetched in some ways.  The technology for doing alot of these things is still in its infancy.  I'm willing to see compromises.  Heck, use old 2D graphics, I don't mind.  Music can be old Midis.  Sound effects can be little beeps and boops.

PurpleYouko:
I completely agree with a lot of what you are saying and while your suggestions would indeed be pretty cool, you would probably have trouble finding players who would be willing to stick it out for long, particularly if charcter death is final.

Point 1 I agree completely. The game needs to be absolutely massive with loads of places to simply explore if that's what you are into.

Point 2 I think should be more of an option. I would design the world around a few hubs of civilization and allow people to adventure out into the wilderness and play survival as well if that's what they want.

Point 3 is definitely where I am heading. A totally living, persistent world where a chopped down tree slowly rots and new ones grow back over a long period of time. Probably a lot faster than in real life but still along certain rules

Additionally MMO players like to have quests and in every MMO that I have played, these are extremely linear. That is to say that each new character has to go through the same set of quests in the same (or similar) sequence. This also means that time doesn't actually pass for real in these worlds and that no matter how many people go out and collect 50 "Startstones" for the little guy on the corner of the street, the next player to come along will still have to get more.
On quest that you have to do near the start of FlyFF (discussions on Juro-Tejina) is for this guy who whines on about not being able to go home because there are too many monsters in the way. You have to kill about 20 of them so that he can go. Trouble is, the pillock never goes. he just stands there and whines to the next player.

I plan to make random quests that can only ever be completed by one player. If you aren't the first one back with the goodies, tough. Somebody else beat you to it and the guy isn't there any more.

I also plan to include a random dungeon generator with dungeons that gradually disappear once they have been fully looted and all the goblins killed.
Monsters WILL NOT simply spawn the way they do in most games. They will have to find a lair then reproduce in it until they spill over into nearby areas.

I have a whole bunch of specific plans for the project even though I haven't actually got stuck into the coding just yet.

As I said, come on over to Kuro-Tejina if you are interested.

Numsgil:
The main problem I see is that MMOs must inherantly distance the player from the world so that it's "fair".

Which I totally understand.  It's no fun going into a used stall at a truck stop that the guy before you has managed to spray feces all over.

Which is why I think it would be nice to have a minimally massive online game (mMO).

Have like 12 to 50 guys connect to a buddies server in his house, or better yet, have a P2P network; the more players you have the more the world huffs and puffs.  Don't worry about hackers or people exploiting things.  Don't worry about griefers.  If someone does something you don't like, you can just kick him out.  It's just you and a bunch of your buddies playing in your own little reality.  You have complete control over the world.

The closest thing to this I've found is RunUO, which let's you (technically illegally, but EA doesn't really seem to care) set up your own Ultima Online shard, and totally customize it (the entire thing is set up in scripts).


--- Quote from: PurpleYouko ---I completely agree with a lot of what you are saying and while your suggestions would indeed be pretty cool, you would probably have trouble finding players who would be willing to stick it out for long, particularly if charcter death is final.
--- End quote ---

 Character death is only an issue if your gameplay has the character constantly putting himself in danger.
 
 Most MMOs concentrate on combat, so it wouldn't be fun to have permanent death.
 
 A game that's about something else (A Tale in the Desert comes to mind) makes risk like it is in real life - something you can avoid if you're carfeul.

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