Darwinbots Forum
Code center => Suggestions => Topic started by: Griz on November 10, 2005, 05:43:30 PM
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a suggestion.
how about including a start.settings file with a new version ...
one that will adjust the settings to those that are not skewed to one end
or the other of the spectrum ... settings that take a middle-of-the-road
approach if you will ... settings that give the new user unfamiliar with all
the controls a chance of starting a sim that is going to function with a
minimum of problems?
it's all well and good for those of you who program the physics and controls
and know what they do and how they affect the performance of bots to just
wing it ...
but that doesn't do much to help the new user coming into this cold ...
who hasn't had a chance to explore the controls, or have any idea yet of
how they work or affect the bots and the simulation.
what many of you take for granted ... or as obvious ...
may not appear to be that at all to someone unfamiliar with the program.
these settings could consist of a particular enviorinment and include a bot or
two to give a decent demo of how DB should function ...
nothing flash or fancy ...
just a little starter kit, if you will ...
that one would not have to tweak just to get working.
I can tell you from my own experience, and observing the problems that
other new users encounter even trying to get it to run out of the box ...
that DB is not at all user friendly ...
not to someone just coming in with no clue as to what NOT to have the
controls set to.
it is indeed a complicated sim with many controls ...
and that's good ... IF one knows what they do and how they function.
otherwise it's pretty overwelming ...
esp when the functions seem to change with every update. ;)
in fact, why not include a few demo sets ...
ones known to you to work? ...
to give the newbie a fighting chance without having to reinvent the
wheel just to get it to run.
once it works, then the user can begin to tweak some of the settings to
explore futher.
so I'm only asking those of you who are 'in the know' ...
to put yourself into the shoes of someone coming in cold ...
and take them into consideration ...
to make an effort to make things a little more user friendly.
if you want to bring more folks onboard ...
and support your cause ...
how about giving them a foot up getting started?
is this an unreasonable request?
I know I would have appreciated such a thing ...
still would in fact ... ;)
thanks
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Finally we are getting somewhere. The first meaningful post from Griz!
Yes, we need that. Actually the default settings work more or less OK, although they have a boring bot (T-perseverance), but they work. Having more fun (and diverse) settings files would be a big plus.
I'm going to start working on that.
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I've wanted to do this for a while, but it's really alot more complicated than it seems. What sorts of bots do you include? What's the first simulation you want people to run?
If someone can put together an actual directory (with program, text files, read me's, sample bots, simulations, and settings) that they think should be a main install, I'll post it on the FTP.
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I'll just choose some bots arbitrarily, start sim, make sure it runs OK with cycles and such and then save the sim. This way all people would need is a saved sim, no need for folders, bots etc... Then I'll add the description files for those sims. That should get any sane person going :)
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What's the first simulation you want people to run?
nothing exotic ...
just one that that has reasonable settings and is stable ...
a demo that works for a lot of cycles without an error ...
a benchmark, some standard to measure against.
then the tweaks and alterations and experimenting can begin ...
and if an error/bug then crops up ...
we have a reasonable idea of what setting changes may have led to it.
just a place to start.
and of course ...
then there can be interesting settings/environments/environments ...
that people discover along the way ...
that lead to interesting behaviors or bot relationships ...
and a place to share those ...
see if others can duplicate them or what variations they discover.
make it a DB lab.
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Finally we are getting somewhere. The first meaningful post from Griz!
the first?
thanks a lot.
guess I have been wasting my time.
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Now now, we were almost on the verge of being cordial.
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This sounds great to me. I want to add that maybe there should be different settings for different versions. I found out that version 2.37.5 behave totally different from 2.4.9 with the same settings. I get a nice simulation with lots of bots and corpses in version 2.37.5 and it also runs fast. In version 2.4.9 with the same settings they all die out. How do you explain that? Maybe you have changed so the values in the settings have a different meaning in version 2.4.9 compared to 2.37.5. Anyway, I whould prefere the most primitive bots to start with, not some bots that are well developed or where someone might have messed with the DNA to make them better. That's cheating.
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Anyway, I whould prefere the most primitive bots to start with, not some bots that are well developed or where someone might have messed with the DNA to make them better. That's cheating.
No that's Inteligent design ;)
Seriously though, it has always seemed that with the tiniest most innocent seeming changes to the DB operating system, result in vast differences to which species seems best adapted at survival within it.
A while back, -6 shots got way too powerful so I weakened them a bit. This resulted in the top F1 and F2 bots losing about 15 ranks on the league tables while others got stronger.
It can be quite difficult to choose a primitive bot that isn't so primitive that it can't survive at all.
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This sounds great to me. I want to add that maybe there should be different settings for different versions. I found out that version 2.37.5 behave totally different from 2.4.9 with the same settings. I get a nice simulation with lots of bots and corpses in version 2.37.5 and it also runs fast. In version 2.4.9 with the same settings they all die out. How do you explain that? Maybe you have changed so the values in the settings have a different meaning in version 2.4.9 compared to 2.37.5.
Well, Nums, I told you so!!!
Testlund: Version 2.4.9 is a completely different program than version 2.37.5. There are different physics, differnent DNA structure and tons of other changes. 2.4.9 is a test for an all-new extremely improved DB universe. I do not recommend downloading it, unless you want to help Nums to find bugs in there. It is just a stepping stone on the path from VB-based DB-II to C++-based DB-III. It should not be called 2.4.9, it should be called "DB-III, internal alpha release".
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I have to agree with Shvarz here.
Nums is a fair way along a rather ambitious path to completely overhaul DB.
It is a great project and should eventually yield a spectacular program but there isn't very much that is similar between 2.4 and any earlier versions.
If you simply treat the two as unrelated programs then you won't be far wrong. Just don't expect to be able to use any settings from one in the other.
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Ok. That explains it then. Well... Maybe if Nums could make a default settings file to start with for 2.4.9 it whould be nice. I think every version uses the same default, that for 2.11. Time to update that one, maybe? For me, I enjoy the simulations more in 2.37.5, but I like the GUI better in 2.4.9. The mutations settings in the GUI is a little better to understand. A little more explanations what they mean and how they should be set.
About primitive bots. I like to start out with a bot that is only good enough to multiply and eat. The rest should have to evolve.
Another thing is that I don't think they should have eyes. That's unnatural. You need a lot of cells to make a seeing eye. The eye is a very advanced construction. There primitive organisms that have a spot that can detect light and darkness, that's all.
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SO make one that doesn't have eyes then.
It has been tried before I think.
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Yeah 2.4 runs differently from 2.37. Hence why it got upped to 2.4 and not 2.38.
Basically the mutation rates are really what's different I'll bet. Has anyone compared versions with mutations off?
Ties also work a bit differently in 2.4 from the new physics.
And then the differences in sizes that happen in 2.4 can really throw alot of bots for a loop. Especially when it takes 100 cycles of firing shots to finish off that veggy with 10 body.
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Actaully, there does exist some cellular thing in some cells that can detect light and dark. Very similar to an eye.
And remember bots aren't necessarily cells. They could also be land animals. Or fish. It's all in what you want to make them.
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I'll post a default settings later today soy uo can run the program with it all working.
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And remember bots aren't necessarily cells. They could also be land animals. Or fish. It's all in what you want to make them
I have a real hard time thinking about them as any kind of organic life at all.
To me they are nano-bots, wholly mechanical but with a very rudimentary AI.
DBs are whatever you want them to be. :D
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Yeah, you have the power as programmers to make it anything you want. If you want to create little pink elephants running around sucking veggies with there trunks, you can do it. :P
It's all a matter of taste, really. Personally I think it whould be best if you try to make a program that works according to nature, to understand how life evolves from 1-cellular organisms. That's what I find very interesting. ^_^
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DB is probably the most organic simulator out there. Have you looked at Avida, Tierra, etc.?
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I can't remember I've seen those programs.
I get the feeling too that this program is the most organic simulator. That's why I got interested in it. I have done a lot of searching to find the ultimate A-life program. Most are too simple.
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you want to create little pink elephants running around sucking veggies with there trunks, you can do it.
Sweeet! :D
Pink Elephant mode!
(Appends the to-do list for 2.37.6)