Darwinbots Forum
Code center => Suggestions => Topic started by: Botsareus on January 31, 2008, 02:16:22 PM
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(sorry for any spelling problems)
A.) There is an administrative program that makes sure an organism gets scanned 3 times by different ips before it is inserted in the list of 15 or it replaces one of the organisms in the list of 15.
(15 vegs
15 organisms
15 e-grid organisms)
one problem is if there are less then 3 users online the prosses cannot be completed.
I also don't know if it is possible to scan ips of all users connected to the ftp. And so the administrative can kick some ips off.
note: all three ips must be active troughout this prosses.
B.) By "scanned 3 times by different ips " I mean the darwinbots program runs a copy of itself and determance if the organism is better then any old organism from the list of 15 or if the compare prosses lasts longer then n sycles in a F1 like trial. There is a specially designed F1 mode for e-grid organisms.
n is equal to a siffisiant ammount of sycles to determen if the organisms are about the same. I have not used db in a while so I can not determan what the exact number is.
C.) The administrative program knows that a scan failed when it's not updated within n sycles + some more time. Since different computers run at different speeds so before a "scan" accures the organism gets updated with info of how much sycles the program runs in 30 seconds.
D.) The organism carrys this tags troughout the sanning prosses
'? #(order of inserition into the list of 15, Is it replacing the 1 ... 15nth file) #(sycles in 30 seconds) 3 #(ip1)
'? #... #... 2 #... #(ip2)
'? #... #... 1 #... #... #(ip3)
as soon as the tags above "scan" is complete the tag is deleted and the robot remians as a member of the 15.
Remember: the administrative program assesses the prosses above so if there is cheating going the prosses fails and the old organism is restored.
note: hopefully atleast 1 of the 3 users is legal
problem: what if the reverse happens like if the illigal user short sircutes the organism transfare prosses?
solution: if the other two ips exsept the "scanned organism" but this ip denies it and it happens for 3 organisms in a row then the ip is kicked from the ftp.
problem: what if a user has an ip scrambler?
solution: once a user logs on it has an extra number attached to it's ip. It takes a while for this number to be exsepted. If a user relogs on with a different ip and the same number he/she is kicked of the ftp.
I am at the edge of giving this up because I never programed ftp and I don't know if thr above is even possible. I provided the general idea now I need someone to program it. If people can think of somthing better or have any qustions or comments feel free to ask.
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First, organism sharing is currently working just fine. So I don't know what you mean by bringing it back, since it's here already and never left.
Second, what you're suggesting isn't sharing organisms, it's placing them in a dynamic league that gets auto-run. Which would certainly be a fun thing to play with, but...
What you're suggesting is impossible with FTP. It would require TCP/IP, and a server. We don't have a server, and one would cost at least something like $50 a month. Or require someone with a static IP to connect their computer directly to the internet, instead of through a firewall, and be sure to keep it running all the time.
So in the end, it's just not practical.
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First, organism sharing is currently working just fine
O I did not know...
OK
Is it like "public" organism sharing. Or do I have to log on to "someones evo sim" in order for it to work?
I mean is it "public" organism sharing or is it "Internet Sharing Sims"
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Well, I gues you mean by organism sharing the IM(internet-mode). If you participate in IM your bots are uploaded to a ftp-server and you download bots at desame time from the server.
Just download the latest DB-version, and click at the computer sign at the right.
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As usual, Bots' stuff does not compute for me, but...
First, organism sharing is currently working just fine.
is not true for me. I still get time-outs and errors in IM. Every now and then a bot comes through, but it's far from reliable.
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I have a simpler virsion in mind that won't reqire a server but first I have two qustions:
Logic dictates that there is a limit of organisms allowed on the ftp. What is this limit? And how does the program work to respect this limit? Does it delete files? or prevents files from being aploaded? or bouth? or what?
(I realise that there is no point to keep a seporate tab for vegs because reguler robots acting like vegs will always be more powerfull)
(shvarts , this Ironic. I mean you are Russian just like me and you do not understand anything I invent, Is it because it's too computer nerdy (programers languge) sounding or is my english so bad that I am better of explaining it to you in russian? I mean I can type russian with english letters...)
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Must be Thursday again...
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Eric you know this one (I think)... please help...
(I did not want to do this but because the pm system is down I have no choise)
RANT: about public organism sharing:
I see you guys brought back public organism sharing.
But: where is the ristiriction on how much organisms a user can upload a minute?
Also: were is the ristiriction on the content of an organism file?
I bet you: hackers are manualy uploading tons of junk on the ftp...
Now tell me: Is my rant justified?
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Thats nice:
EricL types
Must be Thursday again...
And leaves,
What am I here? Yes I did give up on alot of stuff I propose, but thats because I realise it is completely imposible. This stuff I have some sense in... (I hope), anyway no one proved me wrong yet... and you people being a jerks is :cry:
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But: where is the ristiriction on how much organisms a user can upload a minute?
Upload per unit time is a function of the interesection rate of bots with the IM teleporter with a max of 9 bots per upload cycle. I suggest you try actually using the program...
Also: were is the ristiriction on the content of an organism file?
If a bot file is not a well formed dbo file, the program won't do anything with it.
I bet you: hackers are manualy uploading tons of junk on the ftp...
Your on. I win.
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Thats nice:
EricL types
Must be Thursday again...
And leaves,
... and you people being a jerks is :cry:
I'm sorry. Your right, I was out of line. What I should have said was: "Botsareus, what the hell is with you man? Why are you even here? You obviously don't use the simulator. You're incredibly out of touch with the program and the community and what's really sad is that you have no excuse. You're not a Newbie, but you don't even try to find the answers to any of your questions on your own (even the few that make sense). In general, your posts are nonsensical and not worth the time spent reading them much less responding. You obviously spend a great deal of time off-line attempting to design something, but why you bother is beyond me. Your designs are duplicative and out of touch with reality.
Personally, I don't give a rat's ass about your personal history or your personal troubles or why you only show up for an hour at a time on Thursday mornings (PST). But I do care that your sole contribution to this community seems to be to fill it with spam and waste my and other's time. You want to be a member of this community, I suggest you try acting like one by actually running the simulator and learning what is there before trying to redesign it.
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Botsaurus I don't understand it, it sounds like some security system or something. But it seems,
A:
Iám too simple to understand you.
B:
You're bad in explaining.
C:
You just make no sense.
Why does it every time make a 'Iám'
Anyway just try out DB, and then look what has to be better.
I bet you: hackers are manualy uploading tons of junk on the ftp...
On this case, is there a maximum size of bytes that you can upload every time or that will be accepted by the server. I don't think anybody would abuse it, but is there any maximum.
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On this case, is there a maximum size of bytes that you can upload every time or that will be accepted by the server. I don't think anybody would abuse it, but is there any maximum.
There is no such max at the server. The DB simulator limits uploads client side to 9 dbo files per upload cycle and does automatic back off to keep upload cycles separated by about 200 seconds pluys or minus.
I view our current FTP plumbing for IM as temporary, not so much for security reasons as for scalability reasons. The client-server, file-based semantics I'm using will not scale very high, probably not much above 50 or 100 users, do to collisions on pop files and the top bot files in the download queue. If IM ever gets really popular, we will have to go with parallel mega-sims or change to either a peer-peer mechanism with a rendevuez server or some sort of distributed multi-server store and forward system. In fact, one crazy idea I may explore is using an email server as our transport. Given our needs are largely asyncronous, this could work well...
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Botsareus, what the hell is with you man? Why are you even here?
Good Point, I was way out of line myself. I still have no access to the program from here; As soon as I do, I will try to post stuff more realisticaly. I was in a dream world...
All I am saying is there should be a checking system so users won't upload worthless suisidal bots to the ftp. One way to do this is by checking a bot being uploaded agenst an exsisting bot on the ftp... But I have still no access to the program. And even If I did , I have no idea how ftp works and won't be able to set up my own ftp server... Thats why I leave the above up to you:
Make sure there is no chance a user uploads a useless robot to the ftp. Thank You.
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What's wrong with a useless bot on the FTP? If someone downloads it it'll die fairly quickly. I think the real issue is if/when we have a large enough user base that we want to do something like a IM zerobot evo sim, how to limit it so that only zerobots get transferred between sims. I can see it being a problem, less from malicious users and more from accidental contamination.
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If someone downloads it it'll die fairly quickly.
Fairly quickly is an understatement. Even the stronger bots have a small chance of surviving, as one bot will have a hard time colonizing a simulation that is already teeming with others. At best, you'll just be exporting packages of energy.
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If someone downloads it it'll die fairly quickly.
Good Point, I never seen it that way...
So the uselss but is downloaded , it dies , then a better bot is uploaded , brilliant.
I view our current FTP plumbing for IM as temporary, not so much for security reasons as for scalability reasons. The client-server, file-based semantics I'm using will not scale very high, probably not much above 50 or 100 users, do to collisions on pop files and the top bot files in the download queue. If IM ever gets really popular, we will have to go with parallel mega-sims or change to either a peer-peer mechanism with a rendevuez server or some sort of distributed multi-server store and forward system. In fact, one crazy idea I may explore is using an email server as our transport. Given our needs are largely asyncronous, this could work well...
Sorry, but I still did not understand to how much robots the ftp is limited to?...
50 or 100 users * 9 = 450 or 900 robots?
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Size isn't a limitation. We have gigabytes to burn. The limit is the number of users logged in at once. Our FTP setup limits us to 50 FTP users at once. If we ever had that many users going at once, it would be a Bad Thing.
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Even without the user limit, we would limit out on the number I/O operations per second the server can handle. FTP is really a poor way to do client-server and our semantics translate to 10's of head seeks per conencted sim per sync interval and this increases lineraly (for each sim) with the number of connected sims. So, depending on the I/O sub system, the way I currently do it, even without the session limit, the server will go I/O bound at some low number of users, probably fewer than 100.
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I understand, thank you.
However at some point in time size will become a problem...
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EricL; There is another problem of having robots fill 2gb. The chance of a good robot to download becomes very slim. I suggest we physicaly limit the ftp to about 200 robots. This way when a robot is downloaded it has more chance of being a robot that is compateble for a givin simulation: Because the search range is only 200 robots and people running simulations will upload more successful robots...
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That depends how different the 200 robots are, doesn't it? If they're all clones of some seasnake, it won't really matter which gets downloaded, will it?
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The idea is there are more legal users then illigal users...
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If there were 100% legal users (which there are atm), then there's no problem, is there?
Do you mean more illegal than legal? I guess we cross that bridge when we come to it.
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guess we cross that bridge when we come to it.
sorry, what do you mean? I have trouble with sarcasm...
(whats wrong with limiting it to 200 robots? Is there really more users trying to clone exsisiting bots rather then upload fresh once?)
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It's not sarcasm, it means that we'll deal with that problem if and when it arises, instead of planning for it upfront.
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Fairly quickly is an understatement. Even the stronger bots have a small chance of surviving, as one bot will have a hard time colonizing a simulation that is already teeming with others. At best, you'll just be exporting packages of energy.
Quote by Bacillus...
The problem has arrived...
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That's not an issue with bad users, that's an issue with the difficulty of taking over a sim when you're outnumbered 1000 to 1. What he's saying is that the worse thing that happens if you upload a bad bot is that it feeds another bot in another sim.
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That will be illiminated when we have less bots to deal with. So the uploads of good bots outnumber the downloads of the bad bots.
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It's not a good bot/bad bot issue. It's an outnumbered 1000 to 1 issue.
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OK, let me try a practical example:
The following are active users whos bots are between 0 worse to 10 best, there are 10 users.
[1],[2],[3],[4],[5],[6],[7],[2],[9],[10]
The ftp in the example above is limited to 20 therefor at the first 2 runs it is equal to:
{1},{2},{3},{4},{5},{6},{7},{2},{9},{10},{1},{2},{3},{4},{5},{6},{7},{2},{9},{10
}
Now since this is the limit, the only way the values will go is up:
{1},{10},{6},{4},{10},{6},{7},{10},{9},{10},{1},{10},{6},{4},{10},{6},{7},{10},{
9},{10}
But what if the limit is bigger then 20? Here is what happens:
{1},{2},{3},{4},{5},{6},{7},{2},{9},{10},{1},{2},{3},{4},{5},{6},{7},{2},{9},{10
},{1},{10},{3},{4},{5},{6},{7},{10},{9},{10},{1},{10},{3},{4},{5},{6},{7},{10},{
9
},{10},{1},{10},{3},{4},{9},{6},{7},{10},{9},{10},{1},{10},{3},{4},{9},{6},{7},{
1
0},{9},{10}
The probability of downloading a better robot greatly diminishes the more times worse robots are added to the ftp.
Atleast you guys can add it as an option, call it "tighter competition mode"
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Again, it's not an issue with good and bad bots. It's an issue with being outnumbered 1000 to 1. The ftp could be filled with absolutely God-like bots, but they still might not be able to take over your sim because your bots number in the thousands. That's why changeovers for who controls IM are usually so infrequent. But when they do happen, they tend to be rather rapid, since if a species can take over one sim, they can usually take over every sim.
So in that way it models a succession event, like in real life, so it's kind of neat
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There's also a cascade effect. The more sims you can take over, the greater your average incoming rate will be into thr sims you haven't. Seasnake 1.3 just took over EricL2 from Spinner 1.5. It had been unable to do so for days, until it recently took over Trafalger's much smaller sim. After that, it's incoming rate into EricL2 gave it sufficient numbers per unit time to beat Spinner on it's own turf.
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My sim's been getting restarted fairly often too, though (to try new tactics for veggies), which, at the last restart, made for easy conquering ground for seasnake - I started it with only veggies.
What I was working on last, and what I started the sim with that time, was alga pair 1.1.1, which has two tied veggie bots which orbit their center point (usually). They also break attempts to tie to them, and un-set fixpos. They had the alga antiviral code in them, but were still getting taken over by seasnake 1.3 until I made them commit apoptosis when fertilized (in version 1.1.1). Unfortunately, that meant that they all got rapidly wiped out when seasnake invaded - and they weren't respawned because seasnake brought in its own zombie veggies.
(The 1.1 version didn't get wiped out - if you consider them all having had their DNA replaced by seasnake's as not getting wiped out. At least, I *assume* they all got zombified, since I can't see into other sims )
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Well, if a bot has no competition on a simulation, you can assume the user has intentionally left his or her sim running for the sake of importing bots from IM. If the user has a mass of evil bots swarming the simulation, chances are he/she will close it down and start over again, taking the bots with them.
Probability has not much to do with bad bots swarming; a good bot with low chance of being teleported will have as good a chance at successful colonization as bad bots with a high teleport probability.
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Again, it's not an issue with good and bad bots. It's an issue with being outnumbered 1000 to 1.
I disagree: I believe that if you have 1000 C_Filines on the screen and you insert TheOne in there it will make crushed meat out of the C_Filines...
The less there are other bots available for download the more chances it can hit TheOne
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a good bot with low chance of being teleported will have as good a chance at successful colonization as bad bots with a high teleport probability.
Now that sounds right... I can see the point...
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Once again, if you didn't want a bot there, you'd delete it or start again. If you don't want your simulation to be spoiled by others, turn IM off.