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Messages - shvarz

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Bug reports / Re: Serios issues with windows8
« on: October 01, 2014, 01:16:01 PM »
I had the same thing. It was due to opening a graph, any graph, and it persisted even if you closed it. Bots found and fixed the bug, latest versions work fine for me, but I always go into properties and turn on WinXP compatibility just in case.

Darwinbots Program Source Code / Re: Status of IM mode
« on: September 29, 2014, 04:50:10 PM »
It's like this now, open for suggestions for change.
receive limit = sent bots *2+10
sent limit = received bots *2+10

Can you explain how this is supposed to limit things? If we have a fast-running sim, which generates a lot of bots, then this algorithm does not seem to limit anything. The sim will send it's first 10 bots, get permission to receive (10*2+10)=30 bots, will receive them, get permission to send (30*2+10)=70 bots, will send those and so on.

Or am I missing something?

Suggestions / Re: Did anyone else want chloroplasts?
« on: September 29, 2014, 02:04:18 PM »
Yes, exactly what is discussed there. I think Nums' suggestion sums it up nicely:,3487.msg1383180.html#msg1383180

Darwinbots Program Source Code / Re: Status of IM mode
« on: September 29, 2014, 01:49:49 PM »
I think limiting the outflow of bots from a sim is a very good idea, glad you are working on this. The problem, of course, is the unequal speeds of simulations on different computers and the reliance in the current system based on cycles. As a result, a small fast-running sim can completely dominate the internet database at the cost to the slow more complex sims. I would suggest setting some limits on how frequently people can send bots and how many they can send per a given amount of time. Maybe something like no more than one organism every 15 mins, or a cap of 100 bots per day.

Suggestions / Re: Did anyone else want chloroplasts?
« on: September 29, 2014, 08:45:00 AM »
Panda, all of them. I guess bot size has a limit, so maybe not that as much (although you could still crank up the rate at which bot size grows with chloroplasts). You can crank up the rate at which chloroplasts contribute to waste. And you can increase the actual energy cost per cycle of having chloroplasts. You can also tone down the amount of energy that a bot gets every cycle via chloroplasts.

My point is: if the problem with having simple equations for chloroplasts is that bots always evolve chloroplasts and then sit and feed on energy (which is what Bots told me), then there are ways to deal with that via other balancing functions.

Suggestions / Re: Did anyone else want chloroplasts?
« on: September 28, 2014, 03:26:28 PM »
Panda, if they do that and it's still better for bots to just sit and feed on veggies, then they don't do that enough. Jack up the penalties until running around and feeding on veggies becomes a competitive strategy.

Suggestions / Re: Did anyone else want chloroplasts?
« on: September 27, 2014, 09:00:31 PM »
I think having chloroplasts was a great idea, it always bothered me that veggies had to be assigned to be veggies. In real world, the border between plants and non-plants is quite fuzzy.
But the current implementation is driving me crazy because the formulas behind it are not in any way logical.
I understand the challenge that bots with chloroplasts get their energy for free, but that just means that having chloroplasts should come at a cost. They should require quite a bit of energy to maintain, they should make bots become large, etc. If you do it right, then some bots will evolve to have chloroplasts, while others will evolve to eat those that have chloroplasts, and others will switch back and forth depending on conditions.

Announcements / Re: Darwinbots 2.48.16
« on: September 27, 2014, 08:49:59 PM »
So, which one should I use - 79 or 4669? It's just a different place to store bots or is there anything else different between the two?

Can we, perhaps, keep a bunch of bots on the server at any given time? Maybe accumulate 1000 bots and then give out one only in exchange for a bot coming in?

Announcements / Re: Darwinbots 2.48.16
« on: September 27, 2014, 08:02:47 AM »
Thanks, changing to 4669 helped. The program uploaded a bunch, but nothing is coming back, I get "server got not bots" message.

Never mind, i'm getting bots now and then. Most of the time I get "server got no bots", but sometimes bots do come in.

How do you manage the number of bots stored on the server?

And now I'm getting this:

Announcements / Re: Darwinbots 2.48.16
« on: September 26, 2014, 10:57:45 PM »
On one computer IM works fine, on another I get this:

Newbie / Re: Chloroplasts
« on: September 25, 2014, 10:03:38 PM »
Maybe I'm blanking, but I don't remember ever suggesting anything you describe. Maybe you are confusing me with someone else?

From what I understand your calculations are driven mostly by the desire to adjust for something or make something to work better, but it's not clear at all to me what it is that you are trying to optimize and why do you choose that particular way to fix it. The final result makes very little sense to me. Maybe we should have another chat (or even voice) session tomorrow?

Newbie / Re: Chloroplasts
« on: September 25, 2014, 09:14:44 PM »
It is more workable to make smooth transitions for the robots. It was a painful trial and error process. 

This does not really explain anything. Smooth transitions from what to what? Why do the square any multiply by 4? What's the logic behind it?

Let's go back to our calculations.

Now we need a unit value of the amount of chloroplasts a robot has. Let us call that Cu.

Cu = c / 16K

What is c? Why do you need to divide it by 16000?

Now we have to calculate what is the rate of adding chloroplasts, lets call that Ra.

Ra = (L * Cu) ^ 0.8 * T * 1.25

I assume you don't mean "the rate of adding chloroplasts", but mean "amount of energy a bot gets from chloroplasts". But the logic behind multiplying L by Cu completely escapes me. And even more confusing is the "^0.8" part. Why do that? What's the point?

Wow, this is really confusing and does not sound terribly logical. In your email to me you said this was based on my original design, but I would have never designed anything like it :)

Here's what I would have done:

"c" is amount of chloroplasts a bot has

"T" is what you put in settings "per veggie" (in reality it's "per chloroplast)

Then the amount of energy that a bot gets each cycle (E) is:


(where a is just a scaling constant to make sure the final number is of the right order of magnitude)

If you want to implement the rule so that the more bots a sim has the less energy they receive (I don't see why you would want that since there are other ways in the program to control total energy flow, but whatever), then the equation becomes:

E=c*T*a*Ls (where Ls is what you calculate as Ls = R / (A * 0.85))

Newbie / Re: Chloroplasts
« on: September 25, 2014, 07:52:50 PM »

And what do you mean by

Finally we compute a more workable value for light. Just becomes easier to integrate.

L = (1 - Ls) ^ 2 * 4

What is "light"? Is it the light = 32000 - (Ls * 32000) or is light calculated by this formula? Or did you mean that 32000 - (Ls * 32000) is what robots see, but that value does not actually figure into further calculations?

And what do you mean by "more workable"? Workable for what? Why do you need to do these operations?

And to progress right to the next issue: If you don't have any funky things like pond mode or wheather, what's going to be the value of the tocken in the most boring of sims?

Newbie / Re: Chloroplasts
« on: September 25, 2014, 05:59:21 PM »
light = 32000 - (Ls * 32000)

You lost me here. Where does 32000 come from? Is this the "total amount of light that an empty sim would get"? Is that adjusted for sim size at all?

Newbie / Re: Chloroplasts
« on: September 25, 2014, 04:18:40 PM »
Sorry, I don't get it and the graph is not terribly helpful. Can we just take a simple case of feeding X energy per veggie and go through the logic (can use the math if you want to) of how that number gets used to figure out how much energy each bot gets?

From what I've heard it goes something like this:

X is somehow converted to total amount of "light" L (how?), then each bot gets its share of "L" based on how many chloroplasts it has (c) out of the total number of chloroplasts in the sim (C) =L*c/C

Is that right? Am i asking silly questions and all of this is documented somewhere? It should be.

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