Darwinbots Forum

Bots and Simulations => Evolution and Internet Sharing Sims => Topic started by: EricL on August 31, 2007, 07:01:17 PM

Title: Come join the F1 megaverse!
Post by: EricL on August 31, 2007, 07:01:17 PM
The new internet sharing capability (version 2.43d or later) is ready for some prime time excercise.    

Preditor3 is dominating at the moment, but I'm sure there are some F1 league bots that can take him.  If you've got a bot or two that you think can compete, I encourage you to download the latest buddy drop (see this topic (http://www.darwinbots.com/Forum/index.php?showtopic=2160)) switch into F1 Internet mode and see how your bots fair.

Comments and/or questions related to F1 Internet mode welcome on this thread...
Title: Come join the F1 megaverse!
Post by: EricL on September 11, 2007, 06:38:35 PM
So, where are all you big time F1 league bot builders, eh?  Quaking in fear that you can't build a bot thats up to the internet challenge do doubt!   My little Preditor rules Internet mode and I've never even built a league bot!  I spat on your meager bot building talents!  hmmpf!   Challange me in Internet mode if you dare or I shall be forced to taunt you a second time!

Plus, I'll buy a beer for the author of the first bot to reach a population of 25000 in the F1 megasim!
Title: Come join the F1 megaverse!
Post by: Elite on September 14, 2007, 03:58:57 PM
I'm trying to resist the temptation to take the worst, most destructive viruses I've created and push them all through the teleporter  

I've released Durus Uredo onto the net. It evolved in a very harsh environment, so it's very good at surviving in an extreme range of costs and environments. A newly debugged Una is also out there.

What are the settings you're all using to run internet-enabled sims?
Title: Come join the F1 megaverse!
Post by: EricL on September 14, 2007, 04:47:38 PM
Quote from: Elite
I'm trying to resist the temptation to take the worst, most destructive viruses I've created and push them all through the teleporter  
Go for it.  Anything goes in the free for all at the moment.  Besides, my bots are checked virus immune....    Probably a "feature" we should override in the free for all Inet mode...

Quote from: Elite
I've released Durus Uredo onto the net. It evolved in a very harsh environment, so it's very good at surviving in an extreme range of costs and environments. A newly debugged Una is also out there.
Una has managed to take hold with a population of 100 or so on at least one of my machines.  It seems to do well against Preditor8, but since Preditor7 mutates (Preditor8 is marked not to) it keeps evolving to work around whatever Una does...  In fact, Preditor 7 has come back from being almost dead to stand on top of the ranks right now with a total population over 2000...   Mutating may be a serious advantage in internet mode....

Quote from: Elite
What are the settings you're all using to run internet-enabled sims?
I have 5 machines each running a sim with pretty much default physcis and F1 costs with a couple hundred veggies and autocosts with targets ranging from 500-1000.  Nothing special.

Ain't this fun?
Title: Come join the F1 megaverse!
Post by: Numsgil on September 14, 2007, 11:47:49 PM
Whos computer is running the nanite detonators?  The population level never seems to change and I never seem to get any nanites teleporting into any of my sims.
Title: Come join the F1 megaverse!
Post by: EricL on September 15, 2007, 02:20:19 AM
Quote from: Numsgil
Whos computer is running the nanite detonators?  The population level never seems to change and I never seem to get any nanites teleporting into any of my sims.
Jez I think.  Bug in the current version - doesn't clean up the local population files from sims that have come and gone.  Next version will.  You can make them go away by deleting any old (or even all) .pop files in the local Transfers\F1 directory.
Title: Come join the F1 megaverse!
Post by: Peter on September 15, 2007, 05:18:15 AM
Has this happened to annyone else, in a few moments it chanced from a sim with my bots an a few preditors to a sim overruled by alga_minimalis. Everything was looking fine, and 5 minuts later. All my bots (at least in my sim) have extinced and alga_minimalis was left. Has this happened to someone else.

Byten by a alga.
Title: Come join the F1 megaverse!
Post by: EricL on September 15, 2007, 03:12:12 PM
Are you running autocosts without a zero costs level?  Perhaps the preditors spiked the CostX multiplier through explosive reproduction, raising costs which then killed everything but veggies...
Title: Come join the F1 megaverse!
Post by: Peter on September 16, 2007, 06:20:35 AM
Quote
Are you running autocosts without a zero costs level? Perhaps the preditors spiked the CostX multiplier through explosive reproduction, raising costs which then killed everything but veggies...

I'am pretty sure I had a zero cost level, I gues  , I am not sure.

The preditors never have really ruled the sim, they come and go but there are always there in small numbers.I gues none of the bots really ruled outside their own sim.    



Quote
Server unreachable.  Teleporting intrasim.

And what does this mean, server overloaded or so. too much trafic or anything.


Quote
16-9-2007 14:19:55: multiply(peter).txt teleported in from Peter

So it is transferred somewhere, and in the end I get it back or so. Isn't it a bit strange to get your own bots back.


This F1 internet mode is a fun idea, having in total more bots then in your own sim, knowing they try to takeover another sim.
Title: Come join the F1 megaverse!
Post by: EricL on September 16, 2007, 01:29:32 PM
Quote from: Peter
Quote
Server unreachable.  Teleporting intrasim.

And what does this mean, server overloaded or so. too much trafic or anything.
It means what it says.  Your program had a problem contacing the server so the internet mode teleporter has truned into an intrasim teleporter for a while.  I'm pretty sure our FTP server only allows 5 simultanious authenticated sessions.  The current buddy drop holds on to a session long than it should.  Next drop should be better, but we are going to hit some scalability limtis w.r.t. number of connected sims unless we (I) make some changes to another server and switch to unauthenticated FTP.

Quote from: Peter
Quote
16-9-2007 14:19:55: multiply(peter).txt teleported in from Peter
So it is transferred somewhere, and in the end I get it back or so. Isn't it a bit strange to get your own bots back.
It's part of the paradym.  Bots get teleported to a single queue in the sky.  Sims don't know which bots came from which sims nor should they.  They just take the first N off the top of the queue.  You don't want bots to pile up on the server if you the only one running but more importantly, it provides a automatic way to adjust for different teleportation rates and in particular, for stopping flooding cheats.

Quote from: Peter
This F1 internet mode is a fun idea, having in total more bots then in your own sim, knowing they try to takeover another sim.
Indeed.  Not only is it fun and encougages competition, but I think it is also a path towards providing insight into many evo sim where we have hit roadblocks - more environmental diversity, preditor based selection favoring mutations over hand coded bots, etc.   For example, Preditor7 has killed off Preditor8.  Preditor7 mutates.  Preditor8 does not...
Title: Come join the F1 megaverse!
Post by: Peter on September 16, 2007, 02:46:40 PM
Quote
Indeed. Not only is it fun and encougages competition, but I think it is also a path towards providing insight into many evo sim where we have hit roadblocks - more environmental diversity, preditor based selection favoring mutations over hand coded bots, etc. For example, Preditor7 has killed off Preditor8. Preditor7 mutates. Preditor8 does not...

I'am not sure about the Preditor7 killing of Preditor8, when I introduced the bot multiply, preditor's population was already something of a few houndreds, smaller then it was but when multiply was trying to conquer other sims(it population even rose higher then preditor7), it fell down to almost nothing. So maybe the extra competion from multiply brought it totally down. But you'r probably right about mutations being better on a longer timescale.

 
Fun, I gues I've conquered numsgils sim, somehow there where 10 transfers from numsgil to me, of multiply in a short timescale(a few seconds).  
And after that minute I don't see anything coming from Numsgil anytime. Huh how.



Are there any multiplys left in your sim. Are they surviving. I am wondering.


Is there a way to look at the population's of other sims. I gues in most sims the 'original' bot survives. But is there a way.


There where 6 sims (3 from EricL), so at least 4 different species. I only saw 2, mine, multiply and preditor7(well, preditor8 was there). So do you see all simulations population or only EricLs and your own or do you see the populations of all others too on the graphic.  I never have seen any other serious populations.


I have ended my own sim now, let's see if it survives without it own sim.(or would it be still surviving in Numsgils  )
Title: Come join the F1 megaverse!
Post by: Numsgil on September 16, 2007, 07:05:37 PM
You conquered my sim   Then Darwinbots tried to access something with a subscript out of range (2nd time this happened) and locked up.  Good news is that loading the error.sim lets me resume with no problems.

I agree that a way to tell the populations of other sims would be nice.
Title: Come join the F1 megaverse!
Post by: Peter on September 17, 2007, 10:40:13 AM
I'd just look how my bots where doing, and they where surviving althrogh not in very high numbers, but they where surviving.


I have opened a small sim with nothing but veggies, in no time my multiply came it and took it over, yeah my bot is still alive. A little later a mutated alga minimalis came.  I metioned before my sim being took over by a alga minimalis. This was the alga(the alga was reproducing whenever it could and going as fast as possible backwards, my bot couldn't destroy them and died becouce of nrg shortage), later preditor7 came and was surviving between the mutated version. Probably having mutated with it and being able to survive it.


This explains why I couldn't conquer EricL sim with preditor7 in it, becouce of the mutated alga.

Preditor7 wasn't conquering my sim becouse of the fact(I just checked, yeah my bot wins in a F1-rules match  ), it has a better dogfighting/reproducing ability if the alga is an not very heavily mutated alga. With the mutated version preditor7 wins.

So preditor7 just took over my sim becouse of the mutated alga took over my 'normal' alga minimalis. The chance of alga was better for preditor7 and so it took over my sim. The alga doing the work for you that's smart.
Title: Come join the F1 megaverse!
Post by: EricL on September 17, 2007, 12:18:13 PM
Wow.  That is the coolest thing I've ever heard.  Evolved symbiosis!  I should make it clear I didn't design or intend this.  I just forgot to mark them as non-mutable when I first injected them and they have gotten away from me!  What's even more interesting is that I have three sims running Internet mode on three machines at the moment (yes, I have more computing power at home than some third world countries) with three screens on my desk and they each look quite different even though the environments (physics, costs, etc.) are essentially the same.  In one, everybody is shooting all the time (total shots > 11000).  In another, very few shots (total shots < 900) even though the populations are roughly the same (about 1100 bots, 300 veggies each).  All three sims are owned by Preditor7/Alga but I think subspecies have evolved in different directions in each isolated environment!  

What's more, I'm having a hard time building a hand coded bot that can survive for long in a sim in the Preditor7/Alga environment even when I pump it full of nrg to give it a head start.  Either they die on the vine and get killed pretty fast or they achieve a modest population of a few hundred, beat down Pred7 then Pred 7 comes back and gets them.  I think being able to mutate is a kilelr advantage in a changing environment, letting you adapt to new compititors.  So cool!
Title: Come join the F1 megaverse!
Post by: Peter on September 17, 2007, 02:25:17 PM
Let's see if I can make a stronger one too, going to be hard to create a bot strong enought to beath the alga better than preditor7, some multiply mutants coming from an other sim(don't now witch one) and they where able to survive on the alga. So some have adopted to the alga.

Fun, in the F2 league multiply runs in as the fifth, losing from raticus whitch is doing the oposite of multiply, it almost never reproduces, losing from your opposite   .

Now see if I can beet the horrible alga minimalis(mutated version), I don't hope that there is in the end a alga is controling all sims.  
Title: Come join the F1 megaverse!
Post by: Numsgil on September 17, 2007, 08:14:27 PM
[attachment=646:attachment]

My population graph attached.

My sim has some pretty aggressive costs. 100 for a tie, 6 for a shot. There aren't any shots in my sim, oddly enough. Veggies are getting paid based on their body, so whatit looks like is Predator is nrg sharing with the veggies, keeping them at barely 40 or 50 nrg, while their body grows to give more nrg.

Multiply seems to die at the hand of Predator really quickly. Check out that blip in Multiply's pop numbers when some predtor were reintroduced into the sim.
Title: Come join the F1 megaverse!
Post by: EricL on September 17, 2007, 09:42:10 PM
Strange.  I keep seeing Multiply's coming in from your sim Nums, coming in to all three of mine, more Multiplys than anythign else, more than exist in the entire multisim.  I wonder if we have some stuck dbo files somewhere...
Title: Come join the F1 megaverse!
Post by: Numsgil on September 17, 2007, 10:29:19 PM
Maybe, but I actually had a pretty good pop of multiplys until about 4 or 5 hours ago.  How long is the queue?
Title: Come join the F1 megaverse!
Post by: EricL on September 17, 2007, 11:11:58 PM
Oh, okay then.  From your graph, it looked like you hadn't had Multiplys for awhile.  Last bunch I got from you was at 6:30pm PST.  

Queue is pretty much real time most of the time, at least it has been those times I've checked.  Bots maybe spend a minute or two in limbo between sims, but that's about it it seems.  I back off sending if I can't download, which is why the teleporter goes intrasim.  If you don't get 10 bots in a poll, you either drained the queue or had a silent connection hiccup.  I max out at 10 downloads per poll...

On a related topic, I watched the coolest thing happen this afternoon.  I had three sims, with three different strains of Preditor7 - one shooting all the time, one not and a third with massive multibot clusters in a high cost environment.  Seemed pretty stable with no strain able to take over the other's territroy adn Multiply not able to gain a foothold in any.   But then I introduced Preditor9 into the non-shooting one, where it managed to take down most of the preditor7's.  But then Multiply showed up and with the Pred7 population down, was able to knock out both Pred7 and Pred9 and take over the sim.  In then took over the shooting constantly one from the Pred7's there.  But then the multi-tie varient was able to spread and take back the two sims over the next hour or two and I gues take over yours as well, wiping Multiply out.  So cool to see specialization and colinization like this...
Title: Come join the F1 megaverse!
Post by: shvarz on September 18, 2007, 11:37:37 AM
I'd like to get into this! I d/l the "I" version and started it up, but it's been a while since I used DBs - so I am a bit baffled by what I should do to join the F1 megaverse. I see the new shiny "IF1" button, but when I press it, it just opens a couple of windows (pop graph, internet log) and that's it.  Nothing else is happening. What do I do?

Update: OK, I went through "start new sim" and now the sim has started and it says "F1 internet mode".  But it asked me for "zero.txt" bot and since I don't have one, I just closed the window, so I think it just loaded the "bleednrg" bot.  Will the bots come through ?  I see a teleport in the sim that is set to "Internet". Does that mean it's an inbound and outbound at the same time?
Another question: Since it's an F1 mode, does that mean that ALL of the sim settings are exactly the same for everyone? Or some thing can be custom-set?

Update 2: I'm just very impatient   Yes, preditor 7 came in, as well as alga minimalis.  So, things seem to be working fine.  Still answer the question about custom settings.

Update 3: Woo-hoooo! More bots are coming in! This is great!  I think this is an awesome direction for the program. I would even suggest making this thing a default that starts automatically when new users run the prog for the first time.  It's very easy, gives instant gratification and you see that things are "happenin" - I see bots of different behavior and morphology.  This is fun!
Title: Come join the F1 megaverse!
Post by: Peter on September 18, 2007, 12:10:35 PM
So my multiply has beaten 2 of the 3 preditor7 base-sims  , and after that being beaten by a third version .

Wait, it beated the sims with the mutated alga, sweet  , so it is evolving.

If I get the graphic right my multply was first weakened by a few preditors, somehow. And then a huge invasion of preditor/(mut)alga came in, somehow in one moment in high numbers, how . And the alga being better for preditor(probaly already being strongered from the other multiplys in the other sims) quicky, very quickly beat up multiply.

Alright, now a way to defaet preditor, the sim is less stable then I first thought, I thought a bot could easily defend it's own sim. So not. It's a bit of a jammer with less diversity.


shvarz

Another question: Since it's an F1 mode, does that mean that ALL of the sim settings are exactly the same for everyone? Or some thing can be custom-set?

I gues everything can be set to to a custom, I could chance everything.  



Update 3: Woo-hoooo! More bots are coming in! This is great! I think this is an awesome direction for the program. I would even suggest making this thing a default that starts automatically when new users run the prog for the first time. It's very easy, gives instant gratification and you see that things are "happenin" - I see bots of different behavior and morphology. This is fun!

Yes, it is fun
Title: Come join the F1 megaverse!
Post by: EricL on September 18, 2007, 12:17:00 PM
Thought you'd get a kick out of this Shvarz.  A couple comments to address your questions:

Internet Mode is a mode.  You switch a sim - any sim - into it and out of it using either the button or the menu item.  When you switch a sim into internet mode, a teleporter is created which will transfer bots to and from the other sims in internet mode.  Switching out should make the sim local again though whatever bots happened to come into the sim will you were in Internet mode now reside in the sim.

Right now, there is only one "flavor" of internet mode which has no restricitons on environment, costs, populations, etc.  It's called F1, but its a total free for all at present with no real relationship to F1 Leagues.  In the future, there will be additional Internet Modes with various restrictions including a proper F1 combat Internet mode which restricts participate sims to F1 conditions.  Some modes will standardize the environment and costs.  Others will restrict what can be teleported, such as only teleporting multibots.  I even plan for ad hoc modes which users can create themselves, supplying a sim which will be automatically downloaded and used by anyone wanting to play in that specific mode.
Title: Come join the F1 megaverse!
Post by: EricL on September 18, 2007, 12:22:52 PM
Quote from: Peter
If I get the graphic right my multply was first weakened by a few preditors, somehow. And then a huge invasion of preditor/(mut)alga came in, somehow in one moment in high numbers, how .
There's a big advantage to being a multibot in Internet mode.  It lets you teleport with up to 50 cells and (your power source if you are a battery bot) all at once.  Its the path to transporting the largest army, complete with supplies all in one go.  This is why the cotton candy multi-bot version of Pred7 was able to take over - lots of cells and a veggy or two to power them.  Being a multibot lets you send an invasion force with up to 50 times as much nrg as sending single organisms...
Title: Come join the F1 megaverse!
Post by: Peter on September 18, 2007, 12:45:17 PM
Quote
There's a big advantage to being a multibot in Internet mode. It lets you teleport with up to 50 cells and (your power source if you are a battery bot) all at once. Its the path to transporting the largest army, complete with supplies all in one go. This is why the cotton candy multi-bot version of Pred7 was able to take over - lots of cells and a veggy or two to power them. Being a multibot lets you send an invasion force with up to 50 times as much nrg as sending single organisms...

Regarding to multibots, will V2.44 allow the creation of 'real' multibots like helios(not just a blob of bots connected with a tie) like preditor is acting right now.
Edit: I am asking this becouse I couldn't create proper multibots in 2.43, maybe it is just me but all other multibots are'nt working properly(in the multibot league)


Quote
Right now, there is only one "flavor" of internet mode which has no restricitons on environment, costs, populations, etc. It's called F1, but its a total free for all at present with no real relationship to F1 Leagues. In the future, there will be additional Internet Modes with various restrictions including a proper F1 combat Internet mode which restricts participate sims to F1 conditions. Some modes will standardize the environment and costs. Others will restrict what can be teleported, such as only teleporting multibots. I even plan for ad hoc modes which users can create themselves, supplying a sim which will be automatically downloaded and used by anyone wanting to play in that specific mode.

I gues it's the best flavor of internet multiple sims, multiple conditions, multiple bots. I am not sure if there has ever has to be (atleast in this version) something like a virus, the danger of a virus is, it can kill all of the population evantualy it can backfire of it's creator and so killing anything, becouse anyone can introduce anything a deadly virus is quickly made. I gues it wouldn't be a good idea on something like this a 'semi'- evolution sim.

A combat F1 mode, I just think it's fine like it is now. If everythink are desame conditions with no mutations there will always be one victor, probably desame as in normal mode.


PS: I gues I will be quoting more often, I looks like I am typing more  .
Title: Come join the F1 megaverse!
Post by: EricL on September 18, 2007, 01:02:15 PM
You should be able to build Helios style multibots right now.  The only reason Helios proper dosn't work correctly in current versions is slight differences in physics between the 2.4X version and the previous 2.3x version it was originally built for.  I know of no bugs in 2.43+ which would prevent the construction of hand coded multibots with deliberate geometry and I expect that Helios could be made to work as designed in current versions with only small tweaks to it's genome (though it would take some time to figure out exactly which tweaks to make).

I encourage you (or anyone else) to attempt to construct such bots or to fix Helios.  Fixes for any bugs found in this area will be given the highest priority.

Regarding multiple internet modes, the first additional mode I will likely add is one where mutatiosn are disabled and bots with mutations are prevented from teleporting.  This will be a step towards providing a mode in additiona to the free for all where only hand-coded bots are allowed.

Regarding viruses, right now, you can mark your species virus immune before you release it (Pred7 is NOT so marked) and all descendents will be virus immune.  Overriding this is one thing I will likely do in the free for all mode.  Seems like too much of a cheat.
Title: Come join the F1 megaverse!
Post by: Numsgil on September 18, 2007, 03:59:13 PM
Predator and multiply seem to have an odd dichotomy.  As soon as either are in my sim, they seem to fight a war of attrition with both pops spiraling towards zero.  Sometimes predator wins, and sometimes multiply wins.  It's very interesting.  multiply does manage higher sim wide energy levels when it's in control, so by all appearences it should be the better bot.  Might have something to do with veg repop maybe.

I would point out that we might not necessarily have the raw number of computers necessary to run a whole lot of different internet modes at once.  It might be a good idea to keep just a single internet mode until the intrasim becomes big enough to be split into different camps.
Title: Come join the F1 megaverse!
Post by: Peter on September 18, 2007, 04:02:27 PM
There where some troubles with creating multibots, especially in the beginning when any movement can split the multibot, I will look what the problems where(could just be me  ). When I have some time left.

 
Aaaarggh, how to defeat the tie forming preditor, nothing against the preditor, but a pretty big sim like this being dominated by one specie is a bit dull. Anybody, create a bot to destroy it.  , or at least decrease the population a little.


Quote
18-9-2007 21:44:45: multiply(peter)4000.txt teleported in from Numsgil

This sound's kinda strange, I thought they where completely extinced. Or where they coming from a save or so.  


Did you say preditor wasn't virus immune, there are maybe some possebilities  , I thought you typed earlier the where virus immune.  Had it chanced.

Edit : I quote
Quote
Go for it. Anything goes in the free for all at the moment. Besides, my bots are checked virus immune....  Probably a "feature" we should override in the free for all Inet mode...

Maybe introduce a big virus.
Title: Come join the F1 megaverse!
Post by: EricL on September 20, 2007, 11:27:44 AM
Update:

Preditor7 still rules Internet Mode with more than twice the population of it's nearest rival, Lionfish - 1.1 though Lionfish has been making steady gains (it now completely owns one of my three sims).  Preditor7 keeps evolving and coming back though and is now nearly 1500 generations and 500 mutations (average) evolved.  Multiplypeter(4000) is currently the only other heterotroph with a small though consistant population below 100.  It may be better suited to Num's high cost environment than either Preditor7 or Lionfish - 1.1.

As always, additional sims are welcome to join anytime...
Title: Come join the F1 megaverse!
Post by: Peter on September 20, 2007, 04:39:40 PM
Nice, now I looked there are more then 10 species. It will take some time will there just be a single dominating specie, if it will happen from out now.

This internet mode is becoming better and better.

Preditor7 is still leading
lionfish second
folowed by cardenis orbis

I see alga minimalis is lower in number then preditor7, has preditor7(tie-version) become smaller or even extinct(it needed much alga to tie too)
Title: Come join the F1 megaverse!
Post by: shvarz on September 20, 2007, 06:17:39 PM
Pretty much the whole Carnatis Orbis population is in my sim. They are doing OK in my sim, but I doubt they survive anywhere else. Please let me know if they are doing OK in yours.

Weird, my sims get swamped with Alga minimalis, even though I unchecked the "Transfer autotroph" option. Is this a bug, or am I missing something?
Title: Come join the F1 megaverse!
Post by: Elite on September 20, 2007, 06:19:38 PM
I've released some Bestia Mactabilis to the net. I'm really quite proud of these ones: they're good dogfighters and make use of a colourful repetoir of dirty tricks, countermeasures and combat skills.

I also briefly ran a sim with no bots of my own. Some multipys teleported in. After some experimentation, I found out they had no virus immunity. I sent the virus-infected multiplys back out into the wild. Heh. heh. heh.
Title: Come join the F1 megaverse!
Post by: Numsgil on September 20, 2007, 06:20:47 PM
It's really interesting to watch my sim develop.  One species will dominate for thousands to millions of cycles.  Then, in a relatively brief 1000 cycles will totally be replaced by another species.  And then later on will be replaced by the species it replaced itself.

I'm guessing that since my sim runs much faster than most others (roughly 40 cycles/sec) maybe it has to do with how fast mutations start piling up.  Evolutionary dead ends are quickly exterminated by an incoming species.

Whatever the case, as soon as two competing species exist in my sim, energy levels plummet.  I mean really plummet.  The sim is so small, and alga so scarce, high pop levels really require a Pax.  As soon as any sort of war starts, things go to Hell.

Really very interesting.  Wish I could figure out more about the dynamics going on.
Title: Come join the F1 megaverse!
Post by: EricL on September 20, 2007, 07:52:07 PM
Quote from: shvarz
Weird, my sims get swamped with Alga minimalis, even though I unchecked the "Transfer autotroph" option. Is this a bug, or am I missing something?
Right now, the internet mode teleporter overrides all the teleporter settings.  I may even hide the properties dialog itself.  The idea is to level the playing field, at least with respect to organism flow between sims....
Title: Come join the F1 megaverse!
Post by: Peter on September 21, 2007, 03:25:36 AM
Quote from: Elite
I also briefly ran a sim with no bots of my own. Some multipys teleported in. After some experimentation, I found out they had no virus immunity. I sent the virus-infected multiplys back out into the wild. Heh. heh. heh.

Oh, eh, no virus defence . And there wheren't even that many of them. Poor multiply   .


Quote
Right now, the internet mode teleporter overrides all the teleporter settings. I may even hide the properties dialog itself. The idea is to level the playing field, at least with respect to organism flow between sims....

Yes, but could you just disable simple alga. The transfer of alga' is costing time(atleast the sim is reset to speed 0), and a different alga in different sims could lead to a increase in divercity. Being harder to conquer.
I am not sure what to do with huge multibots with alga atteched really.
Title: Come join the F1 megaverse!
Post by: shvarz on September 21, 2007, 12:00:05 PM
Quote
One species will dominate for thousands to millions of cycles. Then, in a relatively brief 1000 cycles will totally be replaced by another species. And then later on will be replaced by the species it replaced itself.

Is your sim very small?  Less than (or around) 100 bots?  The dynamics you describe remind me of stochastic dynamics of small populations. The rule of thumb for those is that any fitness differences that are < or ~= to 1/N are not important and behave as neutral alleles. And those get replaced rarely but rapidly due to chance.
Title: Come join the F1 megaverse!
Post by: shvarz on September 21, 2007, 05:36:56 PM
Not sure how long I've been running my sim, but so far no bot could invade it successfully. The best attempt was by Preditor7, which came in, replicated to pretty high levels (~300 bots vs 50-60 of my evolved Carnatus) and then mysteriously died out in a typical "War of the Worlds" style (its population quickly crashed to 10-20 and then those died out pretty quickly too).
Title: Come join the F1 megaverse!
Post by: Numsgil on September 22, 2007, 12:14:24 AM
Quote from: shvarz
Quote
One species will dominate for thousands to millions of cycles. Then, in a relatively brief 1000 cycles will totally be replaced by another species. And then later on will be replaced by the species it replaced itself.

Is your sim very small?  Less than (or around) 100 bots?  The dynamics you describe remind me of stochastic dynamics of small populations. The rule of thumb for those is that any fitness differences that are < or ~= to 1/N are not important and behave as neutral alleles. And those get replaced rarely but rapidly due to chance.

Yes, actually.  My average population is 170 with the cancerous veggy spikes.  An median population is probably around a hundred.  Good to see the sim behaving like real life.
Title: Come join the F1 megaverse!
Post by: Peter on September 22, 2007, 05:17:04 PM
What are in fact the species everybody has and the enviroment they live in.

I just have a sim with at the moment multiply3 with pretty normal F1 costs, exept for the fact everything is everytime rounded down (0.001 becomes 0)is it a bug or something), somehow the cost multiplier is going up as hell. Having a cost multiplier of 33 a normal shot cost 66, isn't that much. A stupid shooting bot just dies.

Trying to aim the population around 200(20%) the population is always higher and trigering the cost multiplier. Having mostly around 250 bots with pikes towards 300 and down to 180 or so.

What's happening in the other sims, I am interested.
Title: Come join the F1 megaverse!
Post by: Elite on September 22, 2007, 07:00:01 PM
Currently running a sim on size 2 with non-evolving Bestia Mactabilis. Other bots occasionally teleport in, but nothing takes hold. Is anyone getting any Bestias arriving in they're sims? How do they do?

Preditor7 is a rather interesting one. For a mutated bot with incredibly mutated dna, it's scarily good at fighting and adapting. A few teleport in every so often, and they're usually quite good at holding my bots off for a while.

Internet mode is so fascinating!
Title: Come join the F1 megaverse!
Post by: EricL on September 22, 2007, 11:49:06 PM
I generally have between three and five machines running mid sized fields and basically F1 league mode phsyics and costs with autocosts keeping the population at around 1000 bots each.  At the moment, Lionfish 1.4, Preditor 7 and multiply(peter) exist in all three of my currently running sims with varying populations.  In fact, the leader w.r.t. population is different in each one currently.  I try to leave at least three machines going all the time so I guess I host the bulk of Internet mode most of the time.  Pred7 has dominated over the past few days, but challengers have made him extint in at least one of the three sims multiple times.  But then a version will teleport in from another sim and win it back.  I think sim isloation effectively allows for speciation of mutating bots like Pred7.   The populations in differnet sims develop in differnet directions.  The Pred7 you encounter in one isn't necessarily the Pred7 you find in another.

Pred7 was a pretty complete battle bot in it's initial unmutated form with a wide array of attacks and counter attacks.  It doesn't surprise me too much that the mutated version(s) are highly effective.  Perhaps competition in internet mode - with other Pred7 strains and other species - provides for stablizing selection which preserves that effectiness even after 500 cumulative mutations...

Quote from: Elite
Is anyone getting any Bestias arriving in they're sims? How do they do?
I see them come in occasionally, but they don't last.  Currently none in any of my three sims though the pop graphs show they have come in...
Title: Come join the F1 megaverse!
Post by: shvarz on September 23, 2007, 02:42:40 AM
Quote
Good to see the sim behaving like real life

Yes, but if this is indeed the case, then this means that you don't have positive selection acting in your sim.  It's just random bots replacing each other randomly.

Upd: Actually, it means that most bots will replace each other randomly, but when one bot is much-much-much better then another, then you'll have positive selection.
Title: Come join the F1 megaverse!
Post by: Numsgil on September 23, 2007, 06:05:32 AM
I sort of consider my sim like a time warp.  Bots come in, probably live their lives something like 10x faster than in their old sim, mutate a bit, then get teleported back to their old sim.  My sim's like a frontier.  Or that's the idea anyway.
Title: Come join the F1 megaverse!
Post by: Peen on September 25, 2007, 12:17:16 AM
So far my sim has been safe from invasion.  Other than Alga-minimalis. (Right now they are in a side to side moving mode. .   cut my Swarm by a third.  

I kept wondering why lionfish & preditor were kicking my tail with the tie feeding method, then I found the typo. . left out a stupid period before a deltie command.

I've got ONE Preditor7 floating around. . not doing much. . occasionaly feeding on an algie that swims by or a Swarm member that mutated and lost it's tie protection.

LOL. . 6 Preditor9's just came in and ate the mk 7.
Title: Come join the F1 megaverse!
Post by: EricL on September 25, 2007, 12:48:16 AM
I released Pred9 about an hour ago.  Big tank with lots of shell designed to go after Lionfish 1.5.  Doesn't mutate.

Welcome aboard Peen.
Title: Come join the F1 megaverse!
Post by: MacadamiaNuts on September 25, 2007, 10:32:01 AM
I find quite annoying that mutated bots tend to be successful where the unmutated versions fail miserablely...

I made Lionfish 1.5 to be a big, bully loner bot, with tons of body, shell and stuff, and it just threw away all that.  

Be said, the Lionfish that rushed the sims wasn't in my sim at all. I left another version evolving the whole night but it didn't "cross the line".
Title: Come join the F1 megaverse!
Post by: Peen on September 26, 2007, 01:55:23 AM
This may not be the right area to ask, but in a multicore system, will one instance of DB use both cores?  Or would one need to copy the whole DB file tree and run a 2nd instance to make use of the 2nd core (N copies needed for N cores?)
Title: Come join the F1 megaverse!
Post by: Numsgil on September 26, 2007, 02:01:59 AM
You don't need to actually create two DB folders, but you will need to run two instances to use two cores.  On the other hand, it also means you can use your dual core system for web browsing and even light gaming and still run one DB instance at full speed.
Title: Come join the F1 megaverse!
Post by: Peter on October 26, 2007, 02:27:58 PM
I haven't been connected to this internet F1 for a while, I am trying to connect and I just don't seem to find any other sims.
They do still exist do they  

What has happened in the month, has everything extinct and a serious mutated amimal minimalis taken the thrown or is preditor still ruling. How many sims are there right now connected, I can't see I just see one, my own.
Title: Come join the F1 megaverse!
Post by: EricL on October 26, 2007, 02:44:56 PM
The FTP server is having problems right now I think.  Wait a few hours and see if it fixes itself.
Title: Come join the F1 megaverse!
Post by: Testlund on October 27, 2007, 08:11:47 AM
Quote from: Numsgil
You don't need to actually create two DB folders, but you will need to run two instances to use two cores.  On the other hand, it also means you can use your dual core system for web browsing and even light gaming and still run one DB instance at full speed.

Somehow I don't trust this about dual core processors. I've used different monitoring software to see how my dual core works, and what it looked to me was that it just uses it's first core until it reaches over 100%, then the other core starts working. So it appears like a split single core processor. I don't know about specially design software for dual cores. Maybe different operations on each core would increase efficiency with such software, but I think two instances of DB would just run on one of the cores until the operations reaches over 100% for that core.
Title: Come join the F1 megaverse!
Post by: Numsgil on October 27, 2007, 09:40:40 AM
There's nothing to let a CPU rest in DB, so a single instance should let a single processor go to 100%.  Mind you that doesn't mean the processor is actually working at it's full potential.  The system measures how busy the processor is by how much time the idle windows process gets to run.  A program could "busy wait", that is, do nothing but take it's full time at the processor doing it, and use 100% of the processor.
Title: Come join the F1 megaverse!
Post by: EricL on October 27, 2007, 11:26:45 AM
Also, if a thread does block for awhile, Windows will try to reschedule that thread on the same processor it came off last on the presumption that the L2 cache is still useful.  

So, bottom line, if you only have 1 processor's worth of work going on, it is not unexpected that you should see most of it on one processor while the other does little, particularly as Nums says, when the majority of that work is in a seldom blockng single threaded app like DB.  

If you run two DB instances on the otherhand, than you should see both processors working hard.
Title: Come join the F1 megaverse!
Post by: Henk on October 30, 2007, 01:37:26 PM
Hi all,

This new internet feature is really cool! gratz EricL!

The coolest thing just happened. I had just started DB, and had forgotten to set any simulation costs. So out of nowhere (well, from the teleport actually  ) came a blob of 'multiply3(peter)' bots, who (ab)used my no-cost environment to reproduce like lunatics!
then they teleported all over the place, just in time (before I activated costs again)

That's so cool!

 
Title: Come join the F1 megaverse!
Post by: Peter on October 30, 2007, 02:34:18 PM
I just want to say that the multiply you probably encoutered probably where multiply that have evolved for a month in different sims, I have introduced them a month ago. They have over all those time kept some of the enourmous multiplying. They will probably do it too with more costs but somewhat slower. With that fast reproducing you'd probably had the pretty fast moving one. That one is perfect in no cost suroundings.

I could be someone else intrduced multiply again ofcourse(maybe it isn't a month old), I am not that sure.

With the fast moving one, I mean there are different subspecies.
As I have looked, I found out there are multiple types of multiply one that is shooting far too often and moving as fast as possible, the funny ones. (it's just a little creepy how much they still look like there ancesters). The where meant to not care about efficientcy and just multiply
And on the other side some that are more dull and cheapskates at energie, huh(dumb) an veggie let's go towards it and shoot, but not too fast or else I am losing nrg.
Some tie forming ones, probably taking profit of the teleporter. Moving in as one giant blob. Also a powerfull tactic. This have I too generally seen at most types of bots sometimes. Using ties to come further.

He, I see shimazu coming in my sim. Differsity going up. Let's see if it can beat up multiply.

You're right this internet mode is cool  .
And there will be happening even more cool stuff.

And a question about bots coming in out,
Is there a way to get less bots to be taken away with the teleporter?

The bots don't really care but as I look on the in/out ratio I cannot believe alle bots are being departed. And probably staying in the out folder. Is there a way.
I don't really have a problem with it, most bots are after awile transferred back, and that brings me on question two
The bots that are transferred in from your own sim, are those the bots that are in the out folder the longest ?

That would mean then that the new bots would every time be chalenged by bots that have been frozen by time. old vs new all the time and that would probably mean you're pretty sure of bad mutations being taken out fast even if they take over a sim. And that is good by my idea.

And Henk are you from the Netherlands too, I see Henk and I am thinking dutch.
Title: Come join the F1 megaverse!
Post by: Henk on October 30, 2007, 03:00:58 PM
Shimazu is my first bot. I posted it like... I don't know... 2 or 3 years ago, back in the days when we had the old forum and PY was still doing the programming... *nostalgic*

But yeah, I'm breeding it in my own sim. I hope it will someday be able to survive in another one, and that my population will be able to withstand the invasions of the other bots. How is Shimazu doing in you sim, Peter?

And I am dutch  (Enschede)
Title: Come join the F1 megaverse!
Post by: Peter on October 30, 2007, 03:22:55 PM
Quote
Shimazu is my first bot. I posted it like... I don't know... 2 or 3 years ago, back in the days when we had the old forum and PY was still doing the programming... *nostalgic*
The time I am here I haven't even seen something posted by PY. I know it was one of the programmers.

Quote
But yeah, I'm breeding it in my own sim. I hope it will someday be able to survive in another one, and that my population will be able to withstand the invasions of the other bots. How is Shimazu doing in you sim, Peter?
It is nowhere to be seen I just saw it teleporting into the sim becouse of the log.

If you compare internet sim populations with internet populations you can get an idea how many bots there are outside your sim. I did with your specie and in your case there are at this moment none outside.
It could be your specie gets extinced, it is for a reason you see Preditor11(EricL) the ten before it just don't live anymore.

Quote
And I am dutch  (Enschede)
Yeah, I just saw this beneath your avatar.  , just before I posted this.
Quote
From: Enschede, Netherlands

I live in scheemda(oost-groningen), little village(5000 civilions).

I just checked the sim graph, did multiply3 just invade your sim.
Edit:Now I am pretty sure, multiply did. I am almost a little sorry for you Henk

30-10-2007 20:22:34: multiply3(peter).txt teleported in from Henk
30-10-2007 20:22:34: multiply3(peter).txt teleported in from Henk
30-10-2007 20:22:34: multiply3(peter).txt teleported in from Henk
Title: Come join the F1 megaverse!
Post by: EricL on October 30, 2007, 03:43:42 PM
Quote from: Peter
Is there a way to get less bots to be taken away with the teleporter?
With normal teleporters, you would change the size of the teleporter to change the teleportation rate.  I.e. making it bigger increases the probability of bots getting teleportation.  Right now, the internet teleporter is fixed in size so as to avoid flooding cheats but I may relax this at some point.

Quote from: Peter
as I look on the in/out ratio I cannot believe alle bots are being departed.
The in/out ratio will be a function of relative sim speed and size.  Smaller, faster running sims will have a lower in/out ratio as the probability of outbound teleportation is greater.  Larger, slower sims will have a higher ratio as the probability of outbound teleportation is lower.

Quote from: Peter
The bots that are transferred in from your own sim, are those the bots that are in the out folder the longest ?
No, bots of the same species should be FIFO, but there's a bug in current versions in bot naming that prevents bot transfer of different species from being First In First Out.  2.43p will fix this.
Title: Come join the F1 megaverse!
Post by: Peter on October 30, 2007, 04:14:20 PM
Quote from: EricL
Quote from: Peter
Is there a way to get less bots to be taken away with the teleporter?
With normal teleporters, you would change the size of the teleporter to change the teleportation rate.  I.e. making it bigger increases the probability of bots getting teleportation.  Right now, the internet teleporter is fixed in size so as to avoid flooding cheats but I may relax this at some point.
Then I am interested are the bots from my sim flooding all other sims(in 125 /out1811). I suspect they stay in the out folder or else all sims are being flooded. In that case, it wasn't on purpose.  
Edit: the teleporter is at the smallest size and is fixed on place.Thought it would catch less bots if fixed.

I see by martiantank3 and autotroph having straight lines and then going suddenly up and down, multiply having the line little going up and down the whole time(noise). Is this becouse multiply is in my sim that I see it?

Or is there something with martiantank and autotroph. It seems strange. Not very natural.
Title: Come join the F1 megaverse!
Post by: Henk on October 30, 2007, 04:22:53 PM
Quote from: Peter
(...)

I just checked the sim graph, did multiply3 just invade your sim.
Edit:Now I am pretty sure, multiply did. I am almost a little sorry for you Henk

30-10-2007 20:22:34: multiply3(peter).txt teleported in from Henk
30-10-2007 20:22:34: multiply3(peter).txt teleported in from Henk
30-10-2007 20:22:34: multiply3(peter).txt teleported in from Henk

Yeah Shimazu got pwned
Title: Come join the F1 megaverse!
Post by: shvarz on October 30, 2007, 06:12:34 PM
I have multiply in my sim. It pretty much dominates, nothing else can give it a decent challenge.
Title: Come join the F1 megaverse!
Post by: Peter on October 31, 2007, 04:12:41 AM
I am not exact sure how(landMine3(EricL)) probably has something to do with it. Wasn't really there in numbers and now it is, and it invaded my sim and whiped multiply3 almost completely out of it.

The landmines probably used the lack of conspec-recocnition at multiply,somehow the conspec-rec just broke, hasn't happened before has it.

After the invasion.
I reentered one new normal multiply3 at full energie 32000, strangely it was alone enought to whipe out the landmine3, altrough a multiply at full energie isn't really one multiply(first it duplicates and the sipling does and so on). So the landmine has in fact been driven away by 16 multiplys.  

Preditor11 died out,   That's a little poor.

I may be a little more carfull, the intoduction of one new multiply has taken care of a pop as I see of now 2000, it was just one multiply.  

Next time introduce two.

Edit:
It has now aleast grown over 3000 bots, and all others non-veggie are extinct.
It wasn't exactly the purpose to kill all others.   But it has happened.
I am sure someone will introduce a bot to let the population of multiply drop, now I may just enjoy for a moment that my multiply conquered the sims.
Title: Come join the F1 megaverse!
Post by: Henk on October 31, 2007, 07:09:39 AM
I think more variety in simulation settings will solve this 'one-bot-pwnage'
Title: Come join the F1 megaverse!
Post by: Peter on October 31, 2007, 08:24:25 AM
I am thinking(now get the hell outahere he's thinking)
In my opinon it aren't the simulation settings that take care of diversity, but the diversity of the natural veggies, more types of veggies more types of other bots.

A month ago there was something like a big war between multiply and preditor7, preditor7 lived of a fast moving and reproducing mutated veggie. Multiply of the normal minimalis and could barely survive between the mutated version, when I tested it reproduced much less and in much lower numbers. Much where dieing becouse of the couldn't catch those alga.

Preditor7 could't invade my sim becouse of better skills of hunting down alga minimalis. Multiply couldn't invade preditor7 sim becouse of the mutated alga.
Later on there where mutated alga who invaded my sim killing of most multiplys and the rest where killed by preditors. But if there wheren't any alga transferred in the multiply probably had protected their sim and preditor his.

So hereby I say that for a high diversity it is needed that there is an high diversity of alga.


And enclosed an graphic of the powerful takeover of all sims by one single multiply.(with energie 32000)
It gets really fast to extreme numbers.

Edit becouse of a somehow doublepost in one post, no I don't get it too.
Title: Come join the F1 megaverse!
Post by: shvarz on October 31, 2007, 12:30:42 PM
Quote
I think more variety in simulation settings will solve this 'one-bot-pwnage'

You mean variety between sims, right?  I agree, but it has to be the right kind of variety. If sims are too different, then they are not really connected in any way. It's like pulling fish out of the water and dropping it on the ground - it has no chance to survive and/or adapt. There have to be gradients of sorts. I guess if we had hundreds of people running sims with different settings, then some of them would happen (by chance) to be the intermediate forms, but we don't have that.
I don't really have a solution to that for now. We could get organized and run similar (but not identical) sims. But I'm afraid we don't have enough people even for that. I've never seen more than 7 parallel sims, and usually it is 3-4.
Title: Come join the F1 megaverse!
Post by: EricL on October 31, 2007, 01:01:03 PM
I plan to (eventually) implement code where the simulator downloads and enforces a set of constraints when joined to a specific internet megasim.   What those constraints are would be defined by the megasim author, file driven from the server and a function of what kind of megasim it is.  They will at least initially focus on things like teleportation filitering rather than sim setttings or physics.  For example, we may want a megasim in which only unmutated, hand authored bots are allowed.  In such a megasim, I would disable mutations and refuse to teleport bots with mutations.  In another, we may want only multibots and I would refuse to teleport anything not multi status.

This is long term stuff.  It will be menu driven (I.e. a menu will automatically populate and list all the megasims and the user just choses one and the restrictions are applied automatically.)  In the near term, I agree we should have only the single free-for-all megasim although even here, I may add a few constraints/overrides in the near term.  For example, I may override the "virus immune" setting when in Internet mode so that all bots are virus susceptable.  I'm also inclined to do something about people marking their combat bots as autotrophs as it makes it difficult to turn the sun on.  Maybe refusing to teleport autotrophs with eye sysvars or similar.
Title: Come join the F1 megaverse!
Post by: Peter on October 31, 2007, 01:50:47 PM
Could you add someting like bot-markings, instead of accepting just multibots, unmutated bots. Something like a marking for a bot towards a special group.
A way to accept just the bots in the specific group. For example zerobot-sims could maybe be interesting in the future.

Maybe something name related, everything with zerobot in it name. Or another name.
Is something posible when you'r adding the other options.

The blocking of veggie-figher-bots is also a good idea, as far as I have looked none  of the veggies did fight
That means nobody has cheated that way, but there could always happen something like it.

Is it possible to block veggies, I am not sure if the menu works(in earlier versions it didn't work), and could veggies that come with multibots be also blocked or is that too hard to make. I know somewhere you said that it would be more complicated to block those.

Quote of shvarz)
Quote
You mean variety between sims, right? I agree, but it has to be the right kind of variety. If sims are too different, then they are not really connected in any way. It's like pulling fish out of the water and dropping it on the ground - it has no chance to survive and/or adapt. There have to be gradients of sorts. I guess if we had hundreds of people running sims with different settings, then some of them would happen (by chance) to be the intermediate forms, but we don't have that.

It is pretty hard where to draw a line,one diversity, two connection with each other.
If you get a fish out of the water and into the land the chance the fish at once gets feed and can breathe isn't really that big, that's right(atleast I haven't seen it happen  )



But I would like to see what would happen if you had sims with different settings.

I have a proposition
Ofcourse Eric has to agree with it, but can there of the three computers on, be one with low, one with normal and one with high costs.
Eric has too choose the exact settings, they are after all his computers.
And then Eric could post the settings he is using. That way other sims that connect can for example choose for settings between low and normal or between normal and high. That way there could be more diversity and interaction between bots.

What does everybody think, well.
Title: Come join the F1 megaverse!
Post by: shvarz on October 31, 2007, 02:49:35 PM
I think pre-set gradients are a good idea. It could be a gradient of friction or costs or day/night cycles. Label somehow which part of the gradient is already simulated by the running sims, so that new sims could join the simulation with settings that fill in the missing areas of such gradients.

For example, if I see that there are sims that differ only in friction and they have following population sizes:
Friction  Pop.size
0           500
10         600
20         400
30         200
40         100

Then I could join in and run a sim with friction set at 50 and it would be reasonable to expect that at least some of the bots from sim with friction 40 would be able to survive in my sim.
Title: Come join the F1 megaverse!
Post by: Peter on October 31, 2007, 03:14:48 PM
You're right shvarz something like that is waht I mean, I don't really care what the difference between is higher shooting costs or friction or age cost or a mixture. But difference enough to stop the low cost sim from surviving in the high cost, but surviving in the normal cost.

The problem with labeling other sims is that it has to be inplented somehow, and not knowing how hard it is or how long it will take this is a simple solution.
But I would agree to put this on the list of coding for internet mode.

The mean point is just that the three sims of EricL have different circumstances having outlines and possible a middleline, becouse the sims of Eric always seem to be online and the rest not always. And having at all times a bulk of bots.

Possible in the same friction example
instead of
0
10
20
30
40
50

Something like
10
30
50
In EricL sims, and the rest may choose what to take. Best is ofcourse to take here 20 or 40.

Ofcourse can be done with various possibilities. Could too be the sims favor ties more or less, shooting, something else, or a combination.

Sorry to keep saying your Eric name but mostly the sims are between 3-8 and always 3 of yours. Making you the most importent factor.
Title: Come join the F1 megaverse!
Post by: MacadamiaNuts on November 01, 2007, 07:40:32 PM
Meh, I managed to steal a Windoze computer long enough to run a sim and sneak a bot.

IMHO, the best setting to tweak along different sims could be movement cost.
(you see, I'm not an huge fan of bots that swarm across the screen and zap the veggies.)
Title: Come join the F1 megaverse!
Post by: Peter on November 02, 2007, 08:37:53 AM
Quote from: MacadamiaNuts
IMHO, the best setting to tweak along different sims could be movement cost.
You want to have movement cost to stop the bots from moving, you want to have still siting batterybots in the high movement cost area, I gues you would get that type of dull bots with high movement costs.

It could be interesting to see different kind of bots in the simulations fast moving vs. little movment. It would be fine by me. It is after all beginning o become a little dull with all bots with desame tactic, thereby I mostly mean multiply and martian tank. A little movement cost could be good.(I hope there don't come too many dull bots.)

Quote from: MacadamiaNuts
(you see, I'm not an huge fan of bots that swarm across the screen and zap the veggies.)
What do you have against multiply, you are defining his mean tactic, what's wrong with the tactic.

Have you got something against multiply.  , well do you.

Shoot the ones who dare to insult multiply  

What do you have against it  

There are really nice smilies on this forum  

Uh, I mean.  

Nice smilies.
Title: Come join the F1 megaverse!
Post by: Peter on November 02, 2007, 03:52:12 PM
Okay, here is a question.

What is the best speed to run the sims at?

Normally I had a sim with a pop of a few hundred, speed something like 20 cyc/sec. I just checked the out folder and I deleted it, it was something like 120megs that is something like 15000bots. So what is the save range when running a sim. I know I was too fast.

Maybe something to add to a to do list, a limit on the out folder, if there are more then let's say 1000bots in it, then don't teleport any more bots. I wouldn't like to look and have something like a few gigs full of bots. I would say a little waste of space, and often I have the computers harddisk almost full till a few hundred megs(this time I just had 6 gigabyte left  ). That way computers could even crash becouse of extreme space taking of the harddisk.

BTW: Is it normal in windows it takes some time like 15 minutes to clear all files, it was just 120MB but it where 15000 files.
Title: Come join the F1 megaverse!
Post by: Numsgil on November 02, 2007, 05:25:42 PM
If I understand how the internet mode is rigged up, you shouldn't have any bots in your out folder for more than a second.  Sounds like a bug to me.

When a computer deletes a file, it doesn't really delete the file.  It just removes its address in memory from it's central data storage.  That address is rather small, something like 512 bytes or something similar.  The actual hard drive still has the data on it.  (This is where child molesters get caught-- they think deleting their kiddy porn removes it from their computer, but it's pretty easy to recover since all that's been removed is the file's handle.)

So the time it takes to delete files has to do with how many files there are, not how big they are, since all the file's handles are the same size.
Title: Come join the F1 megaverse!
Post by: EricL on November 02, 2007, 05:27:05 PM
The next buddy drop will apply back pressure to throttle the outbound rate.
Title: Come join the F1 megaverse!
Post by: Peter on November 07, 2007, 03:42:37 PM
What is stickerbush, as I have seen it in the sim it seems like a veggie with eye and shooting sysvars, insane reproducing(every cycle storing 50 in repro) atleast I found one that was a veggie, virus immune and disabling mutations. And I saw some kind of id system, I am guesing before it was killed.

Who created it and for what purpose, somehow landmine4 is living yet every time one comes in my sim it is able to kill some multiply off before it is destroyed.(It can't reproduce like nuts like it is supposed to do becouse my veggie limit is lower then my repop limit.)

What has stickerbush to do with landmine. I doubt if there are any bots who can survive that veggie that is fighting back.

Veggies aren't supposed to fight back, they just have to wait until they are eaten, or as a smart veggie you run. But as a veggie you don't fight back, that is very unapprociate.

That veggie just don't now what it is supposed to do.

Bad veggie, bad.


Ha, now one appeared and I could find it, here is the dna, there is some id-system involved, probably landmine4 can becouse of this, deactivate shooting of it. And so survive it. Now find a landmine4.

Quote
cond
 *.robage 20 <
 start
 50 .dn store
 stop


''''''''''''''''''''''''Gene  1: Last 'stop' at position  9''''''''''''''''''''''',

 cond
 *.memval *999 =
 start
 .fixpos inc
 stop

''''''''''''''''''''''''Gene  2: Last 'stop' at position  17''''''''''''''''''''''',

 cond
 *.memval *999 !=
 start
 0 .fixpos store
 100 .up store
 stop

''''''''''''''''''''''''Gene  3: Last 'stop' at position  29''''''''''''''''''''''',

 cond
 *.eye5 20 <
 *.reftype 0 !=
 *.memval *999 =
 or
 or
 start
 157 rnd .aimright store
 stop

''''''''''''''''''''''''Gene  4: Last 'stop' at position  47''''''''''''''''''''''',

 cond
 *.eye5 20 >
 *.reftype 0 =
 *.memval *999 !=
 *.memval 84 !=
 start
 -6 .shoot store
 5 .shootval store
 stop

''''''''''''''''''''''''Gene  5: Last 'stop' at position  68''''''''''''''''''''''',

 cond
 start
 50 .repro store
 stop

''''''''''''''''''''''''Gene  6: Last 'stop' at position  74''''''''''''''''''''''',

 cond
 start
 810 999 store
 336 .memloc store
 stop

''''''''''''''''''''''''Gene  7: Last 'stop' at position  83''''''''''''''''''''''',
Title: Come join the F1 megaverse!
Post by: MacadamiaNuts on November 08, 2007, 01:17:36 PM
You may want to note that, in order to compete with tiefeeders at big fields, you need to avoid the *.refxpos *.refypos angle aiming code, as it is totally useless beyond coordinates 32000, 32000.

Do the classical eight-eyes turning instead.
Title: Come join the F1 megaverse!
Post by: Peter on November 08, 2007, 02:21:23 PM
Quote from: MacadamiaNuts
You may want to note that, in order to compete with tiefeeders at big fields, you need to avoid the *.refxpos *.refypos angle aiming code, as it is totally useless beyond coordinates 32000, 32000.

Do the classical eight-eyes turning instead.
I am losing you, competing with tiefeeders?  
Haven't seen much tiefeeders, but okay  
If *.refxpos *.refypos is useless beyond 32000, it will probably be fixed beacouse it is a bug.

What was your point exactly.
Title: Come join the F1 megaverse!
Post by: MacadamiaNuts on November 12, 2007, 02:04:10 PM
Meh, now stickerbush is somewhat under control, but Alga Minimalis was infected by a defective Lionfish (the dark variant) and took the leading place as the annoying hunter-veggie.

I think slime is preventing it now to catch DNA killer virus.
Title: Come join the F1 megaverse!
Post by: MacadamiaNuts on November 12, 2007, 02:09:48 PM
Now in my sim Alga Minimalis (non mutated) keeps stacking at the lower right corner for some odd reason. So I've got a lot of idle algas that take the space of only one and are so close to the warping border that they are somewhat protected.  

It's quite annoying when food doesn't act like food.  
Title: Come join the F1 megaverse!
Post by: EricL on November 12, 2007, 03:03:44 PM
Quote from: MacadamiaNuts
It's quite annoying when food doesn't act like food.  
This why I wrote stickerbush.  I.e. to demonstrate that veggies are too powerful and that we should do something about it - charge something for all that free nrg - something I have long advocated.   Stickerbush isn't even very evil.  A well written nasty veg would be quite problematic.
Title: Come join the F1 megaverse!
Post by: Peter on November 12, 2007, 03:47:14 PM
Quote from: EricL
Quote from: MacadamiaNuts
It's quite annoying when food doesn't act like food.  
This why I wrote stickerbush.  I.e. to demonstrate that veggies are too powerful and that we should do something about it - charge something for all that free nrg - something I have long advocated.   Stickerbush isn't even very evil.  A well written nasty veg would be quite problematic.
That's the reason, it was by 'coinfidence' working very good together with landmine4.  

Yeah, a few possibilitie's, for this problem, you have coused right now:P .

1. Veggies have automaticly no vision at all.

2. Charge veggies for being veggie, a 'normal' bot will have normal shooting, moving costs. A veggie will have the double costs(or anything higher),just becouse they are veggie,  no that's is dicrimination.
It is becouse the veggie are less efficient in other stuff becoused they are specialised in receaving energie, yes that sounds smarter  .

3. Having a veggie stop in teleports, no veggies teleported. Then only the one who make the hideous veggie, will have it it his sim. allows for more kind of bots too I gues. A lesser one bot ownes it all, becouse you'd to be specialised to live between different veggies.

4. I am thinking, nope nothing.

Anything good between it.
Title: Come join the F1 megaverse!
Post by: MacadamiaNuts on November 12, 2007, 04:56:43 PM
I've got many ideas, but the most straight one would be to drop sunlight metabolysm to zero whenever a gene is executed.

Rationale behind: veggies need to do 3 steps metabolism, to convert light into energy molecules, then use those to build sugar, proteins and fat, then burn/use/store them; while animals take sugar, proteins and fat directly, and then burn/use/store them.

So, the action to gather energy from light would take a full cycle on sun gathering metabolism (idle).

--

Later, a curve could be added to the light metabolism -as, time needed to set up in a good sun bathing position and synthetize full chloroplasts- so the first idle cycle it gets 20% of the full energy, the 2nd, 40%; the 3rd, 60%, till the 5th and forthcoming when it will receive 100% of the selected energy per cycle.

A veggie that idles 1 of each 2 cycles on a sim with 100 energy per cycle would make

20 + (exec) = 10 energy average

A veggie that idles 4 of each 5 cycles on a sim with 100 energy per cycle would make

20 + 40 + 60 + 80 + (exec) = 40 energy average.

A veggie that idles 9 of each 10 cycles on a sim with 100 energy per cycle would make

20 + 40 + 60 + 80 + 100 + 100 + 100 + 100 + 100 + (exec) = 70 energy average.

A veggie that idles 99 of each 100 cycles on a sim with 100 energy per cycle would make

20 + 40 + 60 + 80 + 100*95 + (exec) = 97 energy average.
Title: Come join the F1 megaverse!
Post by: Numsgil on November 12, 2007, 05:03:53 PM
Real plants, at least in our familiar terrestrial, macroscopic world, are huge and heavy.  A large oak tree beats out any land animal any day of the week.  So another possibility is simply to make body in veggies weigh more and be more volumous.  They would need to use more energy to move around, making them far less effective hunters than animals, and since they'd be bigger, they'd be far easier targets for animals.
Title: Come join the F1 megaverse!
Post by: MacadamiaNuts on November 15, 2007, 06:57:19 AM
Lionfish 3 took the sims overnight.

Lost the graph, but it seemed that some standard Alga Minimalis went to live to Preditor11 sim, and when they reached a critical point some L3 entered and both dropped to zero in a nice parabollic curve, about 5-10 thousand cycles at my sim speed. By that point Preditor12 apparently was fighting already, and it dropped in a gentle curve about 30,000 cycles later.

stickerbush and L3 lived together thereafter in quite stable numbers, sticker in higher numbers that under Preditor as it defends against L3. L3 numbers dropped a bit in a straight line during ~100,000 cycles, it probably is adapting to reproduce less often.

If you happen to catch one, open its memory tab and watch the values 972-975, those are the meaningful variables.
Title: Come join the F1 megaverse!
Post by: EricL on November 15, 2007, 10:35:24 AM
Nice.  L3 is good.   Managed to wipe out the Preditors without even being shape aware (I have shapes in my sims).   Now I'm going to have to buy my wife some flowers and put in some more time and build a smarter Preditor....
Title: Come join the F1 megaverse!
Post by: MacadamiaNuts on November 17, 2007, 01:52:14 PM
Yesterday's graph:

[attachment=687:attachment]
Title: Come join the F1 megaverse!
Post by: Testlund on November 17, 2007, 02:04:50 PM
How the heck did you get my Chainbot2 in there?? I didn't even have it in my sim! I've been running with internet mode to day. No surprise they died in your sim as they don't work well in IM, which seems to make them sluggish for some strange reason. 2 tiebots were sent to internet too. Later I got constant file access errors and crash, so I had to give it up. Ok, gotta run for party!
Title: Come join the F1 megaverse!
Post by: MacadamiaNuts on November 17, 2007, 07:00:49 PM
Those were global species stats. My sim just had some L3's and those fighter veggies, on day/night cycles and dynamic costs.

Getting thru the internet barrier is tricky even for L3. Those pilgrim bots aren't gonna find the table set up for them out there.
Title: Come join the F1 megaverse!
Post by: Testlund on November 19, 2007, 02:56:38 AM
You got that right. My bots are just fodder. Nasty Plant entered and whiped them all out in my sim tonight. I only had 100 bots and CostX was only 1. If I run it until I get over 1000 bots before I connect, so costs starts to go up it might be more interesting. I hope Eric will establish that evosim choice for bot sharing soon.  

At least my bots work for IM now. Yay! It's just that I get a lot of slow downs and freezes for several minutes regularly.
Title: Come join the F1 megaverse!
Post by: Numsgil on November 19, 2007, 05:46:06 AM
Quote from: Testlund
At least my bots work for IM now. Yay! It's just that I get a lot of slow downs and freezes for several minutes regularly.

That's probably your sim connecting.  Darwinbots isn't threaded, so the whole program freezes until a successful download/upload session finishes.
Title: Come join the F1 megaverse!
Post by: EricL on November 19, 2007, 10:59:41 AM
Also I think the darwinbots FTP server is flaky.  Things seem to stop working on Sunday mornings for example (GMT - 8).  I suspect GoDaddy disallows changes for some number of hours on Sundays so they can back things up.  Causes everyone in IM to get server connection problems.
Title: Come join the F1 megaverse!
Post by: fulizer on November 24, 2007, 04:42:04 AM
when my sries of puddingbots are ready they will probably get wiped out!
I think
I suppose
don't know
I think they may do kinda well.
puddingwarrior (puddingus offendiocus) is kickbutt for a 5 gene bot
Title: Come join the F1 megaverse!
Post by: Peter on November 24, 2007, 08:30:44 AM
Quote from: fulizer
when my sries of puddingbots are ready they will probably get wiped out!
I think
I suppose
don't know
Well, could be , maybe not, there is a chance.

Quote
I think they may do kinda well.
It is going to become extinct, somehow I have that feeling  .

Quote
puddingwarrior (puddingus offendiocus) is kickbutt for a 5 gene bot
The current F1 league ruler has one gene. So.. the number of genes doesn't really care.
Length could mean something Guardian didn't fit on one post. Click here on Check post lenght on you notice that it is awful long.
The maximun allowed lenght is 1024000000 characters
In this whole post I have used. 850 characters.
Title: Come join the F1 megaverse!
Post by: Numsgil on November 24, 2007, 09:18:53 AM
I actually raised the length limit after Guardian.  Guardian was really a bot that broke new ground, in a lot of ways.
Title: Come join the F1 megaverse!
Post by: Sprotiel on November 29, 2007, 11:31:03 PM
This Internet Mode is really interesting, it got me addicted to DB back again!

As I don't much like killer veggies or giant blobs, I tried to design an environment in which pests like nasty plant or Flypaper would be unwelcome. So no Dynamic Costs (which help proliferators too much) and a hefty cost on DNA length.

I'm having troubles with an infestation of flypaper ATM, but I guess adding '*.tiepres .deltie store' to my Necrophagus will solve it. I wonder what effect, if any, my sim had on the others.
Title: Come join the F1 megaverse!
Post by: EricL on November 29, 2007, 11:49:40 PM
My three sims are still pretty much Flypaper 3.2 and veggies.  Flypaper mutates whereas nasty plant does not, so it has managed to mutate to become better at coexisting with NP and in fact, knock it all the way down in sims with long day/night cycles to the point where beniegn veggies get repopulated.  I designed it to combat NP.  Law of large numbers, lots of ties NP can't defeat in a single cycle and small, so shots miss.  

FYI, nasty plant is really just LionFish 3 as a veggy.

Note that more than one tie can form per cycle, so *.tiepres .deltie store will miss some occasionally, for a cycle or two, which is long enough for FP to retie....

I see a Necrophagus come through every once in a while but they haven't taken hold as yet.

Glad you like IM.  It's only the beginning.
Title: Come join the F1 megaverse!
Post by: Garat on December 16, 2007, 02:51:16 PM
Hello,

I'm coming ...
With my first robot so I'm not sure he will survive a long time but I'm coming.
Title: Come join the F1 megaverse!
Post by: EricL on December 16, 2007, 03:01:47 PM
Quote from: Garat
Hello,

I'm coming ...
With my first robot so I'm not sure he will survive a long time but I'm coming.
welcome aboard!
Title: Come join the F1 megaverse!
Post by: Garat on December 16, 2007, 03:28:58 PM
Thank you
Title: Come join the F1 megaverse!
Post by: Peter on December 16, 2007, 04:03:29 PM
The more the merrier  

I hope I can connect too, within some time.
Title: Come join the F1 megaverse!
Post by: fulizer on December 17, 2007, 06:18:23 AM
the computer I use for my simulations cannot use the internet, can someone add puddingus offendicues/ animal minalis thing for me.
I am also working on a zombiebot which will make me laugh like hell
Title: Come join the F1 megaverse!
Post by: Peter on December 17, 2007, 03:58:21 PM
I have introduced a simpe version of multiply, it doesn't use any dirty tricks, it doesn't use venom and poison or infoshot or anything. Now see how far it comes.
Title: Come join the F1 megaverse!
Post by: Garat on December 17, 2007, 04:40:05 PM
There is also a shrinking violet with some viruses ...
I don' know if someone introduce him or not but he is quite dangerous ... (I tried to make one but I failed, I'm not experimented enough  )
Title: Come join the F1 megaverse!
Post by: fulizer on December 18, 2007, 08:42:31 AM
when my gravybot is ready it will be added to it.
but it wont happen will it?
Title: Come join the F1 megaverse!
Post by: Mikael Hellqvist on March 03, 2008, 01:07:39 PM
My simulation crash almost instantly after I start a f1 Internet mode and I am unable to resume that simulation.

I was previously a user of Evolve 4.0 but since their forum vanished and the author seems MIA I came here to test the DB out
Title: Come join the F1 megaverse!
Post by: Numsgil on March 03, 2008, 01:27:56 PM
The crashes are why they're still buddy drops and not a full new version.  Go ahead and post in the bugs and fixes forum with a zipped attachment of the sim that's causing you problems.  It might be a really easy fix.  I think Eric's on vacation at the moment, but otherwise he's usually pretty punctual with updates and fixes.

Sorry to here about Evolve.  I thought it had a lot going for it.  But their loss is our gain
Title: Come join the F1 megaverse!
Post by: shvarz on March 21, 2008, 08:28:41 PM
Just an update on what is happening in my sim. Although I don't know if I can call it a part of F1 megaverse - almost nothing comes in from internet recently and whatever comes in dies off in seconds.

Anyway, take a peek at the pic

And if anyone cares, here's the DNA of a random predator bot from the sim. How it survives, I have no clue - it's a total mess.

Quote
*.eye5 *.eye3
''''''''''''''''''''''''  Gene:  1 Begins at position  3  '''''''''''''''''''''''
 cond
 >
 sqr
''''''''''''''''''''''''  Gene:  1 Ends at position  5  '''''''''''''''''''''''
''''''''''''''''''''''''  Gene:  2 Begins at position  6  '''''''''''''''''''''''
 cond
 52 .aimleft store
 *.eye7
''''''''''''''''''''''''  Gene:  2 Ends at position  10  '''''''''''''''''''''''
''''''''''''''''''''''''  Gene:  3 Begins at position  11  '''''''''''''''''''''''
 cond
 else
 *.eye5 >
 stop
''''''''''''''''''''''''  Gene:  3 Ends at position  15  '''''''''''''''''''''''
 -52
''''''''''''''''''''''''  Gene:  4 Begins at position  17  '''''''''''''''''''''''
 start

''''''''''''''''''''''''  Gene:  4 Ends at position  17  '''''''''''''''''''''''
''''''''''''''''''''''''  Gene:  5 Begins at position  18  '''''''''''''''''''''''
 cond
 *.eye1 *.eye5 >
 start

''''''''''''''''''''''''  Gene:  5 Ends at position  22  '''''''''''''''''''''''
''''''''''''''''''''''''  Gene:  6 Begins at position  23  '''''''''''''''''''''''
 else
 87 .aimleft store

''''''''''''''''''''''''  Gene:  6 Ends at position  26  '''''''''''''''''''''''
''''''''''''''''''''''''  Gene:  7 Begins at position  27  '''''''''''''''''''''''
 start

''''''''''''''''''''''''  Gene:  7 Ends at position  27  '''''''''''''''''''''''
''''''''''''''''''''''''  Gene:  8 Begins at position  28  '''''''''''''''''''''''
 cond
 *.eye9 *.eye5 >
 *.eye9 *558 >
 start
 -104 .aimleft store
 stop
''''''''''''''''''''''''  Gene:  8 Ends at position  39  '''''''''''''''''''''''

''''''''''''''''''''''''  Gene:  9 Begins at position  40  '''''''''''''''''''''''
 else
 *.eye5 0 >
 !=
 <
 14 *.refeye
''''''''''''''''''''''''  Gene:  9 Ends at position  47  '''''''''''''''''''''''
''''''''''''''''''''''''  Gene:  10 Begins at position  48  '''''''''''''''''''''''
 start
 -1 .shoot store
 *.edge stop
''''''''''''''''''''''''  Gene:  10 Ends at position  53  '''''''''''''''''''''''

''''''''''''''''''''''''  Gene:  11 Begins at position  54  '''''''''''''''''''''''
 cond
 *.eye5 0 >
 *.refeye 13 =
 start
 628 .aimright store

''''''''''''''''''''''''  Gene:  11 Ends at position  64  '''''''''''''''''''''''
''''''''''''''''''''''''  Gene:  12 Begins at position  65  '''''''''''''''''''''''
 else
 *.nrg 6000 >=

''''''''''''''''''''''''  Gene:  12 Ends at position  68  '''''''''''''''''''''''
''''''''''''''''''''''''  Gene:  13 Begins at position  69  '''''''''''''''''''''''
 start
 25 270 6 628 ~ stop
''''''''''''''''''''''''  Gene:  13 Ends at position  75  '''''''''''''''''''''''

''''''''''''''''''''''''  Gene:  14 Begins at position  76  '''''''''''''''''''''''
 cond
 *.eye5
''''''''''''''''''''''''  Gene:  14 Ends at position  77  '''''''''''''''''''''''
''''''''''''''''''''''''  Gene:  15 Begins at position  78  '''''''''''''''''''''''
 cond
 stop
''''''''''''''''''''''''  Gene:  15 Ends at position  79  '''''''''''''''''''''''
 0 *.refaimdx 82 *.numties 0 >

''''''''''''''''''''''''  Gene:  16 Begins at position  86  '''''''''''''''''''''''
 start
 .deltie store
 929 stop
''''''''''''''''''''''''  Gene:  16 Ends at position  90  '''''''''''''''''''''''

''''''''''''''''''''''''  Gene:  17 Begins at position  91  '''''''''''''''''''''''
 cond
 start
 inc
 30 *.vel sub .up store
 =
 0 *.robage
''''''''''''''''''''''''  Gene:  17 Ends at position  101  '''''''''''''''''''''''
''''''''''''''''''''''''  Gene:  18 Begins at position  102  '''''''''''''''''''''''
 cond
 stop
''''''''''''''''''''''''  Gene:  18 Ends at position  103  '''''''''''''''''''''''
 <=

''''''''''''''''''''''''  Gene:  19 Begins at position  105  '''''''''''''''''''''''
 start
 50 .repro store
 stop
''''''''''''''''''''''''  Gene:  19 Ends at position  109  '''''''''''''''''''''''
Title: Come join the F1 megaverse!
Post by: The_Duck on March 22, 2008, 10:07:44 PM
Hi all,

I just download Darwinbots again today after seeing this thread; I played around with it a little a year or two ago. I hooked up a simple sim the F1 Universe, and eventually some Shrinking Violet came in and wiped out my basic algae, as expected. It was pretty much just Shrinking Violet for about 5 hours, and just as I am writing this post I see a small colony of Preditors has established a foothoold in the sim.

I've got some questions:
-Why is my teleporter sending much more to the internet that it is getting back? Currently, bots teleported out=281, bots teleported in = 96.
-Why does my teleporter teleport Shrinking Violets when I've told it not to teleport autotrophs?
-Why does my Internet log contain so many errors? Is the connection bad?

Quote
3/22/2008 10:00:17 PM: Shrinking Violet 2.txt sent to internet.
3/22/2008 10:00:49 PM: Shrinking Violet 2.txt sent to internet.
3/22/2008 10:01:17 PM: Error disconnecting Unable to connect to remote host
3/22/2008 10:01:17 PM: Shrinking Violet 2.txt teleported in from TheDuck
3/22/2008 10:01:18 PM: Error disconnecting Unable to connect to remote host
3/22/2008 10:01:22 PM: Error disconnecting Unable to connect to remote host
3/22/2008 10:01:25 PM: Error disconnecting Unable to connect to remote host
3/22/2008 10:01:45 PM: Shrinking Violet 2.txt sent to internet.
3/22/2008 10:03:00 PM: Error disconnecting Unable to connect to remote host
3/22/2008 10:03:00 PM: Error disconnecting Unable to connect to remote host
3/22/2008 10:03:01 PM: Error disconnecting Unable to connect to remote host
3/22/2008 10:03:05 PM: Error disconnecting Unable to connect to remote host
3/22/2008 10:03:06 PM: Error disconnecting Unable to connect to remote host
3/22/2008 10:03:20 PM: Shrinking Violet 2.txt sent to internet.
3/22/2008 10:03:48 PM: Shrinking Violet 2.txt sent to internet.
3/22/2008 10:03:48 PM: Shrinking Violet 2.txt sent to internet.
3/22/2008 10:04:53 PM: Error disconnecting Unable to connect to remote host
3/22/2008 10:04:53 PM: Shrinking Violet 2.txt teleported in from TheDuck
3/22/2008 10:04:54 PM: Error disconnecting Unable to connect to remote host
3/22/2008 10:04:58 PM: Error disconnecting Unable to connect to remote host
3/22/2008 10:05:01 PM: Error disconnecting Unable to connect to remote host
3/22/2008 10:05:49 PM: Shrinking Violet 2.txt sent to internet.
3/22/2008 10:06:50 PM: Error disconnecting Unable to connect to remote host
3/22/2008 10:06:50 PM: Error disconnecting Unable to connect to remote host
3/22/2008 10:06:50 PM: Error disconnecting Unable to connect to remote host
3/22/2008 10:06:55 PM: Error disconnecting Unable to connect to remote host
3/22/2008 10:06:57 PM: Error disconnecting Unable to connect to remote host
3/22/2008 10:07:07 PM: Shrinking Violet 2.txt sent to internet.
Title: Come join the F1 megaverse!
Post by: Numsgil on March 22, 2008, 11:40:44 PM
Hi, welcome!

Internet mode has some connectivity issues that we're aware of.  If you can get anything from the internet at all you're doing better than most users.
Title: Come join the F1 megaverse!
Post by: EricL on March 23, 2008, 12:38:53 PM
Sometimes it works great for days.  Sometimes it's really flaky.  It's partly the server I think and partly the VB FTP code.  I run it everyday though and it works fine most days....

In answer to your questions:

Fast running sims (I.e. those with fewer bots) will teleport out more than they receive generally.  The teleport out rate is a function of how many bots run into the teleporter (up to 9 per teleport cycle).  Fast running sims will go a lot longer cycles between teleprot events, allowing mroe bots to hit he teleporter on average.

Unlike other teleporters, the Internet Mode teleporter is hard wired to teleport everything and cannot be resized, fixed, etc.  I should do a better job of indicating this.  This is to prevent people gaming the system by attempting to swamp other sims through mass attacks, etc.

I'm going to move IM to a new server here shortly then work on the connection problems.  Stay tuned.
Title: Come join the F1 megaverse!
Post by: bacillus on March 23, 2008, 10:15:16 PM
Anyone else notice that Duplo was stuck on population 675 for a few days now? They never seem to interact with any other simulation.
Whenever I run a sim with high populations, the internet population is always a bit lower than the local population; they update at exactly the same time.
Title: Come join the F1 megaverse!
Post by: EricL on March 23, 2008, 11:06:33 PM
When a sim goes offline, the population files are still downloaded and the population of that sim is included in the total for a day or two.  We are using a passive server, so it's difficult to know when a sim is just slow v. gone away for a long time.  If the sim does not come back after 48 hours, then the population file should get deleted (though I have a bug in this currently).

Duplo generally lives in Shvarz's  sim.  I suspect he is running some atypical environment where Duplo thrives but other bots tend not to.  An examination of Duplo's DNA would be very telling...

The internet population is based on the collected set of pop files.  I generate a local pop file every graph update cycle, but currently, the internet population graph is a a graph update behind in reflecting the local population.   Call this a bug.  I'll fix it someday...

Title: Come join the F1 megaverse!
Post by: shvarz on March 24, 2008, 02:01:05 AM
I'm running a sim with no costs except for the cost of maintaining a body (which is pretty high, ~0.15 per body). I raised the cost slowly, so Duplo probably had time to adapt. Shrinking violet used to do pretty good when the cost was ~0.1.  Now nothing from outside survives in my sim   If someone makes a veggie that would do well under these conditions, I'd be very happy. Right now I have to constantly re-populate with Alga Shellular, a stupid clumsy veggie that I made and which, therefore, sucks like a super-powered vacuum cleaner.
Title: Come join the F1 megaverse!
Post by: abyaly on March 24, 2008, 10:07:08 AM
Use trafalgar's nanite detonators as a veggie
Title: Come join the F1 megaverse!
Post by: bacillus on March 24, 2008, 06:30:01 PM
Quote from: shvarz
I'm running a sim with no costs except for the cost of maintaining a body (which is pretty high, ~0.15 per body).

Figures; I need to start my simulation paused if I want to even see it; for some reason every single bot dies after 8 cycles. The only way I can think this possible is if you have some abnormal strbody/fdbody rates or making crazy huge defense systems.
Title: Come join the F1 megaverse!
Post by: shvarz on March 27, 2008, 02:51:09 PM
Here's a cool-looking colony of Shrinking Violet. Not sure whether that's how it usually grows or I got some weird mutation in it. Looks neat, though.

P.S: By the way, Eric, see what happens with using a background picture? The background color shows through the inside of the bot

EDIT: It's actually Shrinking Violet 2. Here is a representative genome:
Quote
''''''''''''''''''''''''  Gene:  1 Begins at position  1  '''''''''''''''''''''''
 start
 1221 .eye5width store
 50 .repro store
 0 .fixpos store
 *.eye5 0 >
 *.refxpos *796 angle .vel store
 ~ 19 .dn store
 *.eye5 0 >
 17 .shootval store
 *.eye5 =
 1 .fixpos store
 *.body 5 <
 store
 313 1 *.body 10 312 100 >
 store
 *.numties 0 >
 *.tiepres .deltie store
 *.dnalen 81 !=
 . store
 -2 .backshot dec
 *.thisgene 1 !=
 1 .delgene store
 *.thisgene 1 =
 *.genes 1 >
 and
 2 .delgene store
 stop
''''''''''''''''''''''''  Gene:  1 Ends at position  76  '''''''''''''''''''''''
Title: Come join the F1 megaverse!
Post by: Numsgil on March 27, 2008, 03:11:43 PM
Heh, looks like an agar plate.
Title: Come join the F1 megaverse!
Post by: asterixx on March 27, 2008, 04:18:20 PM
Quote from: Numsgil
Heh, looks like an agar plate.

Yes it does. My brother and I had an agar plate growing in our kitchen for a long time. Unfortunately, we had to throw it out  

And also, Flypaper ate all of my Ancestralis bots!  

Title: Come join the F1 megaverse!
Post by: Numsgil on March 27, 2008, 07:06:06 PM
Quote from: asterixx
Quote from: Numsgil
Heh, looks like an agar plate.
My brother and I had an agar plate growing in our kitchen for a long time.

Sure it just wasn't a regular plate with something growing on it in your kitchen   Because I've had those before XD
Title: Come join the F1 megaverse!
Post by: asterixx on March 27, 2008, 07:11:58 PM
Quote from: Numsgil
Quote from: asterixx
Quote from: Numsgil
Heh, looks like an agar plate.
My brother and I had an agar plate growing in our kitchen for a long time.

Sure it just wasn't a regular plate with something growing on it in your kitchen   Because I've had those before XD

HA!
Title: Come join the F1 megaverse!
Post by: shvarz on March 28, 2008, 04:43:52 PM
Don't want to make a separate topic of this, so I'll just mention it here: My sim was running very fast yesterday (1-3 cycles/sec) and the IM was working great! Today I have a spike in bot numbers, sim slows down to 0.1-0.3 cycles/sec and all I get are the Time Outs. Could be related....
Title: Come join the F1 megaverse!
Post by: asterixx on March 29, 2008, 11:19:24 PM
Quote from: shvarz
Today I have a spike in bot numbers, sim slows down to 0.1-0.3 cycles/sec and all I get are the Time Outs.

≤0.1 cycles/sec occurs mostly when there are 2.5k bots, otherwise the cycles remain around 4/sec. That's for me at least  
Title: Come join the F1 megaverse!
Post by: Testlund on April 15, 2008, 04:18:16 AM
How about we try to run evosims instead in internet mode, starting out with only zerobots or randombots? Wouldn't that be more fun? Different set ups for more selective pressures. Designed bots are boring!

 
Title: Come join the F1 megaverse!
Post by: EricL on April 15, 2008, 11:13:43 AM
Quote from: Testlund
How about we try to run evosims instead in internet mode, starting out with only zerobots or randombots? Wouldn't that be more fun? Different set ups for more selective pressures. Designed bots are boring!
Hmmm..... I don't know about that.  We may have the best of both worlds already without realizing it.

If you look internet mode, the most successful bots are ones which mutate.  A_Supremus has ruled IM for a couple of weeks now.  An inspection of a few individuals shows nearly 300 mutations each.  Bots like Preditor 7 and Flypaper 3.2 had over 1000 mutations at their height.   Mutations provide diversity.   Diversity provides flexibility in the face of challengers and environments.  Many times I've watched the population of the leading bot in IM decline precipitiously following the introduction of a non-mutating hand authorred bot only to recover and wipe the newcomer out after a day or so.

The recent performance improvements and ability to run very large fields have also added a new dimension of environmental diversity I think we have yet to really explore.  My IM sim runs at several cycles per second with a popualtion over 3000 before any costs are applied.  This reduces the ability for bots to effect each other unpredictably through costX spikes.  It's so large that bots teleported in can avoid other species for many hours.  Thus a single sim can support many separate species over time with interactions occurring only at popuatlion boundaries.  Add a bunch of shapes and you have the recipie for a large enough, diverse enough environment that isolated populations can go many many tens of thousands of cycles without coming into direct compitition.  This makes it very difficult for any one species, hand authorred or not, to completly dominate every niche and corner, particularly as we add more sims with more environmental diversity.        

The day is coming when a hand authorred bot will have real problems doing well in IM...
Title: Come join the F1 megaverse!
Post by: Testlund on April 15, 2008, 11:55:36 AM
Are you saying larger field sizes will do the job instead of internet mode when it comes to evosims? Several sims connected with different settings could otherwise prevent stagnation. ...maybe.

In any case I agree that we've just begun exploring this, with some new features we didn't have before, so who knows what's the best way to do it?
Title: Come join the F1 megaverse!
Post by: EricL on April 15, 2008, 12:57:29 PM
Quote from: Testlund
Are you saying larger field sizes will do the job instead of internet mode when it comes to evosims? Several sims connected with different settings could otherwise prevent stagnation. ...maybe.
IMHO, most sim settings we have today do not really help create environmental diversity and niches.   Changing the coefficient of friction or y axis gravity or whatever from sim to sim in internet mode or from place to place in a single sim doesn't really do much to encourage organism diversity IMHO.  Not really.   Bot's can't really see or anticipate these settings and the transitions between them are not smooth.   Generally a bot is either adpated to it an environment or it isn't.  Deep oceans and tall peaks are nice, but the interesting stuff happens where you have grandual gradients between environments or even better, lots of different niches int eh same environment   Savannahs that meld into forests, coast lines and tide pools and swamps.   Once in a while the founder effect is important but in general, fish don't compete with mountain goats and thus you don't see organisms from radically different sim conditions survive generally when teleported into other sims in internet mode with radically different sim settings.

I like using shapes for creating environmental diversity because they create the ability for multipel niches in the same environment.  The simple fact of having a shape or two in your sim means that those bots which can distinguish visually between bots and shapes have an advantage if they hang out near a shape.  They can hide in plain sight, using the existance of the shape to confuse a preditor.  Suddenly you have two niches - the roam the open plains niche and the hide aroudn shapes niuche.   They can prey on non-shape aware bots even if they are smaller and inferior while the non-shape aware bots are busy wasting nrg shooting at a wall.  Put a few shapes together and you have physical spaces that can be defended, places to hide, ambush from, places where large bots can't follow or long range eye sight is a disadvantage and so on.  A bot that knows what a shape corner is and how to navigate a quick turn around it can use it to it's advantage to excape an agressor or ambush prey.  Bots can actually hide in shape walls, continually burrowing into the shape, effectively making them invisible.  They can peak out every N cycles to see if there is prey in sight or the preditor is gone.   Add few shapes and suddenly you have dozens of possible niches.

IMHO, environmental diversity is about providing the means for bots to adopt different strategies that work in proximity to other bots with other strategies in the same environment.   You need the physcial artifacts like shapes for this but you also need the geographic space for popualtions to remain isloated for a while so that those strategies can evolve in the first place.  And you if have radically different environments with different physical rules, you need gradual gradients between them.   Both larger fields AND internet mode (combined with shapes) allow all this, but not because they support different sim settings and differenet, seperate environments.  They allow this because they provide population isolation and niche richness of a single environment.
Title: Come join the F1 megaverse!
Post by: Testlund on April 15, 2008, 02:11:48 PM
Quote
Changing the coefficient of friction or y axis gravity......fish don't compete with mountain goats...

I see the connection. A fish swimming through a worm whole ending up falling down a mountain side into the mouth of a waiting goat. Not nice!  

One thing that I see with shapes is that they put bots together into small colonies far away from each other, which could give some interesting results. Otherwise with a very large field size without shapes the bots would be too spread out to interact. Some interaction between bots is likely necessary for the sim to make any progress.
Title: Come join the F1 megaverse!
Post by: shvarz on April 15, 2008, 02:52:08 PM
IM has been almost not working for me recently. I get one or two bots and then don't get anything for days. I started to turn it off, since all it does is slow down the sim with all this waiting....
Title: Come join the F1 megaverse!
Post by: EricL on April 15, 2008, 03:17:02 PM
Quote from: shvarz
IM has been almost not working for me recently. I get one or two bots and then don't get anything for days. I started to turn it off, since all it does is slow down the sim with all this waiting....
I'm running a really big sim, so my outbound rate is really low since the teleporter is so small relative to the size of the sim.  Bots just don't impact it that often.  I see bots come in from you though...
Title: Come join the F1 megaverse!
Post by: shvarz on April 15, 2008, 03:22:37 PM
Speaking of adjusting teleporters for IM: the movement algorithm needs to be adjusted as well: the Brownian motion is OK, but on large sims it means that the teleporter gets stuck in one corner of the sim and does not move away from it for prolonged periods of time. You need to get it moving over long distances now and then
Title: Come join the F1 megaverse!
Post by: shvarz on April 17, 2008, 07:31:56 PM
Quick update: My duplo developed "follow the leader" behaviour on their own. At first I thought it was the virus (there used to be one that caused it), but it's not.  Bot DNA is here, pic attached.
Code: [Select]
''''''''''''''''''''''''  Gene:  1 Begins at position  1  '''''''''''''''''''''''
 cond
 pyth *.eye3 *.eye5 >
 start
 52 .aimleft store
 stop
''''''''''''''''''''''''  Gene:  1 Ends at position  10  '''''''''''''''''''''''

''''''''''''''''''''''''  Gene:  2 Begins at position  11  '''''''''''''''''''''''
 cond
 *.eye7 *.eye5 >
 * start
 -52 .aimleft store
 stop
''''''''''''''''''''''''  Gene:  2 Ends at position  20  '''''''''''''''''''''''

''''''''''''''''''''''''  Gene:  3 Begins at position  21  '''''''''''''''''''''''
 cond
 *.eye1 *.eye5 >

''''''''''''''''''''''''  Gene:  3 Ends at position  24  '''''''''''''''''''''''
''''''''''''''''''''''''  Gene:  4 Begins at position  25  '''''''''''''''''''''''
 cond
 inc
 104 store
 stop
''''''''''''''''''''''''  Gene:  4 Ends at position  29  '''''''''''''''''''''''

''''''''''''''''''''''''  Gene:  5 Begins at position  30  '''''''''''''''''''''''
 cond
 *.eye9 *.eye5 >=
 *.eye9 *.eye1 >
 start
 -104 .aimleft store
 and
 >=

''''''''''''''''''''''''  Gene:  5 Ends at position  42  '''''''''''''''''''''''
''''''''''''''''''''''''  Gene:  6 Begins at position  43  '''''''''''''''''''''''
 cond
 <
 *.eye5 0 stop
''''''''''''''''''''''''  Gene:  6 Ends at position  47  '''''''''''''''''''''''
 >
 *794 9 !=

''''''''''''''''''''''''  Gene:  7 Begins at position  52  '''''''''''''''''''''''
 start
 -1 .shoot store
 stop
''''''''''''''''''''''''  Gene:  7 Ends at position  56  '''''''''''''''''''''''

''''''''''''''''''''''''  Gene:  8 Begins at position  57  '''''''''''''''''''''''
 cond
 *.eye5 0 >
 *.refeye 13 =
 start
 628 5 <
 stop
''''''''''''''''''''''''  Gene:  8 Ends at position  68  '''''''''''''''''''''''

''''''''''''''''''''''''  Gene:  9 Begins at position  69  '''''''''''''''''''''''
 cond
 *.nrg 6000 >
 start
 25 .repro store
 628 add stop
''''''''''''''''''''''''  Gene:  9 Ends at position  79  '''''''''''''''''''''''

''''''''''''''''''''''''  Gene:  10 Begins at position  80  '''''''''''''''''''''''
 cond
 *.eye5 77 =
 *.refaimdx 0 ~=

''''''''''''''''''''''''  Gene:  10 Ends at position  86  '''''''''''''''''''''''
''''''''''''''''''''''''  Gene:  11 Begins at position  87  '''''''''''''''''''''''
 cond
 .strbody store
 stop
''''''''''''''''''''''''  Gene:  11 Ends at position  90  '''''''''''''''''''''''

''''''''''''''''''''''''  Gene:  12 Begins at position  91  '''''''''''''''''''''''
 start
 >
 0 *.numties
''''''''''''''''''''''''  Gene:  12 Ends at position  94  '''''''''''''''''''''''
''''''''''''''''''''''''  Gene:  13 Begins at position  95  '''''''''''''''''''''''
 cond
 |
''''''''''''''''''''''''  Gene:  13 Ends at position  96  '''''''''''''''''''''''
''''''''''''''''''''''''  Gene:  14 Begins at position  97  '''''''''''''''''''''''
 cond
 *.vel 1 .deltie store
 stop
''''''''''''''''''''''''  Gene:  14 Ends at position  102  '''''''''''''''''''''''
 28 >=
 <

''''''''''''''''''''''''  Gene:  15 Begins at position  106  '''''''''''''''''''''''
 start
 30 *172 sub .up store
 stop
''''''''''''''''''''''''  Gene:  15 Ends at position  112  '''''''''''''''''''''''
 floor swapbool
 =
 =
 0 *.numties
''''''''''''''''''''''''  Gene:  16 Begins at position  119  '''''''''''''''''''''''
 start
 50 .repro store
 stop
''''''''''''''''''''''''  Gene:  16 Ends at position  123  '''''''''''''''''''''''
Title: Come join the F1 megaverse!
Post by: shvarz on April 17, 2008, 08:01:31 PM
I even have an idea of why that is beneficial. The food in my sim is very rare, bots have to travel long distances to find it. Walking this way and shooting the person next to you is a way to share the energy along the way. The "head" will die, but the "tail" will survive.
Title: Come join the F1 megaverse!
Post by: shvarz on April 18, 2008, 02:32:09 PM
What?  No one excited? I thought people would be more enthusiastic about a true "beneficial to group" behavior evolving from scratch....
Title: Come join the F1 megaverse!
Post by: EricL on April 18, 2008, 02:49:14 PM
Quote from: shvarz
What?  No one excited? I thought people would be more enthusiastic about a true "beneficial to group" behavior evolving from scratch....
This is pretty flipping amazing...  Really, this kind of thing leads me to beleive that the reason we don't see faster evolution in general in thigns liek zerobot sims has more to do with us not having all the right elements yet w.r.t. environment, seleciton drivers, etc. than it ibeing some sort of basic limit on how quickly evolution can proceed....
Title: Come join the F1 megaverse!
Post by: shvarz on April 18, 2008, 03:03:27 PM
That's more like it!  

By the way, this behavior is still present in my sim, about 30,000 cycles later, which shows that it was not just a fluke. I'm attaching a recent save for anyone interested in running this thing in parallel with me (or just for checking it out).

I have to say Eric that recent improvements to DB performance are really paying off now. I have a huge sim (size 12) with about 1000 bots there on average and it runs at 0.4-5 cycles per second. I don't have exact numbers, but I think a month or so ago it would have run at 0.1-0.2 cycles/sec.
Title: Come join the F1 megaverse!
Post by: Moonfisher on April 18, 2008, 04:26:04 PM
Cool, a bot only able to survive as a group in an environment with low food...
Never ran a sim with so litle food, too afraid the sim will just keep dieing out.
I'm thinking it would probably help to have several sims with slightly different setting and different abundance of food, so bots can keep entering tougher environments and have a chance to addapt to them.

I was running a test for a neural network design in a simple small sim with lots of veggies, and the abundance of food had the oposite effect of what you're describing.
You can find the base bot and the evolved bot in the neural network chalenge topic.
It basicly went from a simple neural network with some hand made weights, able to sustain about 50-150 bots that moved around slowly aimed and shot at food.
The evolved bot completely broke the aim and speed related genes, and just went at max speed in one direction while shooting constantly.
This basicly causes fans of bots to form and sweep up all the alge without killing their own too often since everyone is headin int the same direction side by side.
It was sustaining about 1000-1500 bots at that point and had the screen comletely covered in waves of bots.

Anyway the point is it seems that the abundance of food has a lot to say.
Maybe the amount of alge and energy gain could be regulated accoridng to the amount of bots somewhow, to make survival harder if the bots are having an easy time.
But it generaly seems like the best way would just be to have a lot of different environments to get a slow transition between different settings.
Title: Come join the F1 megaverse!
Post by: Testlund on April 18, 2008, 05:57:06 PM
Amazing sim you got, Shvarz, but it seems a little buggy to run. One time it completely froze. the next time it opened my bot folder.
Title: Come join the F1 megaverse!
Post by: Numsgil on April 18, 2008, 06:13:02 PM
If it opens your bot folder, it's because it's trying to make a bot (say, Shrinking violet?) that you don't have, and the program is going "where's this bot?".  What should happen is that a sim, when created, makes a backup copy of all species' DNA to populate against, so it's not constantly trying to reparse something like, say, Guardian. (hint hint Eric).
Title: Come join the F1 megaverse!
Post by: shvarz on April 18, 2008, 06:38:10 PM
Thanks, Testlund!
It probably looks for "alga shellular", I'm attaching it to this post, just drop it into your "Robots" folder.  Also note that it has teleporters going that save and load bots into/from C:/dbtele folder.  I have no idea what happens to the program if the folder does not exist.
Title: Come join the F1 megaverse!
Post by: Testlund on April 19, 2008, 06:19:33 AM
Yeah, I should have understood imedeately. I was wondering if I may put some changes for the settings for this sim, like adding some costs, or do you want me to run it exactly as it is? If I just screw up your sim by changing something, I can tweak till something works nicely. I just wish I had a spared computer, which I don't at the moment, so I'll have to run this every second day, and my evosim the other day, or at night when I'm sleeping. Is it ok if I run it in internet mode too, I mean two pretty much identical sims connected? Lots of questions...  
Title: Come join the F1 megaverse!
Post by: EricL on April 19, 2008, 11:29:08 AM
You could always run both sims at the same time on the same computer...

There won't be any isues with connecting your copy of Shvarz's sim to IM as long as your IM name is different, which it will be since that is not stored in the sim itself but in a seprate, local file.
Title: Come join the F1 megaverse!
Post by: Testlund on April 19, 2008, 02:57:39 PM
Anyone out there? I just started Shvarz sim in internet mode, with my settings and costs to see how it goes. Costs went down to 0 right away because of the low population. I'll see later how it goes when population goes high. Looks like I'm alone on the server though.

Nevermind. My firewall is lazy tonight. Didn't even react until several minutes after starting IM. just got A Supremus from Eric! :-)
Title: Come join the F1 megaverse!
Post by: Testlund on April 19, 2008, 03:03:32 PM
...and I see Eric has finally made the teleporter unclickable so I can't change it's size. Too bad. A tiny teleporter doesn't get much out in a very large field size.  
Title: Come join the F1 megaverse!
Post by: Numsgil on April 19, 2008, 07:35:13 PM
Maybe instead of a circular teleporter, we could have some shapes rigged as teleporters?
Title: Come join the F1 megaverse!
Post by: Testlund on April 19, 2008, 08:16:11 PM
That seems like unecessary programming to me. I guess Eric has some idea why a static size of the teleporter is the best way. An adoptible size of the teleporter according to the size of the field could be a solution, but it's a question how much Eric wants to spend time with it between bug fixing and feature adding, being the only one working with it for free.

Anyway, where's everybody? I just came home from a clubbin evening finding I'm alone on the server!

...or rather, the ones online seems to have 0 population, which can't be right.
Title: Come join the F1 megaverse!
Post by: Testlund on April 19, 2008, 08:27:57 PM
Actually, the sim had totally frozen. Looks like it froze when doing an internet check, because the internet Log display showed 0. Reloaded and is back on line. Goodnight. :-)
Title: Come join the F1 megaverse!
Post by: shvarz on April 19, 2008, 09:11:17 PM
I'm running only at work and only when I'm not actively using my laptop.
Title: Come join the F1 megaverse!
Post by: Testlund on April 20, 2008, 12:37:20 AM
Well, your sim keeps freezing for me in. I don't know if it's IM or sim related.  
Title: Come join the F1 megaverse!
Post by: Numsgil on April 20, 2008, 01:00:11 AM
The program freezes when it tries to connect to IM.  This is probably what you're seeing.  If you leave it alone for a few minutes it should resume eventually.
Title: Come join the F1 megaverse!
Post by: Testlund on April 20, 2008, 07:59:32 AM
Yeah, I know it freezes for a little while, but I'm sure this was a permanent freeze. I'll take time next time. If it stays frozen for more than 15 minutes I think it unacceptable.
Title: Come join the F1 megaverse!
Post by: EricL on April 20, 2008, 10:47:21 AM
Quote from: Numsgil
Maybe instead of a circular teleporter, we could have some shapes rigged as teleporters?
Actually, I do plan to do this at some point not so mu for IM but for local teleporters and such.  The field walls can be thought of as long skinny shapes that teleport to a specific place....  You could set up point to point teleporters, teleport into a walled off area, etc.

I also plan to use shapes as a paradym fopr local environmental differences.  I.e. allow bots to be on certain kinds of shapes (the current bot-repelling shape can be thought of as one shape mode - the repel all bots mode) and have them gain nrg, loose nrg, etc
Title: Come join the F1 megaverse!
Post by: shvarz on April 20, 2008, 03:26:14 PM
Quote
Actually, the sim had totally frozen.

I never see my sim freezing up on me. Actually, I don't think I ever saw DB "freeze", it's much more prone to crashes
I think that it is indeed a very long wait for IM. I thought everyone had these - when server is unreachable the program goes through these excruciating time-outs where it waits for any reply. Does not it usually happen to you?  I wonder whether it's something specific to my sims...
Title: Come join the F1 megaverse!
Post by: Numsgil on April 20, 2008, 04:47:32 PM
Well, I certainly get it on mine, the few times I run IM, so I don't think it's just you
Title: Come join the F1 megaverse!
Post by: EricL on April 20, 2008, 05:28:49 PM
I'll work in ontegrating the out-of-proc IM connection code this week...
Title: Come join the F1 megaverse!
Post by: Moonfisher on April 21, 2008, 02:15:50 PM
Sweet, was running a no cost sim filled with alge and nothing else on IM for a couple of hours, and nothing came in.
Atleast I can see stuff going on in other peoples sims, but I still want to see A_supremus and the teleporters just don't seem to be working

Also, off topic, been running a sim with a NN and point mutations, trying out a large sim with very few alge.
I'm still running very low costs, but I'm hoping to reach normal F1 costs over enough time.
Nothing very interesting is taking place yet, a few "families" have been dominant and now it seems like one has taken over the sim, so the new NN seems to be working a lot better than the previous ones. (The structure hasn't been broken up too much yet, hoping to get do descent costs before it breaks the shell output, but I'm generaly hoping that a large environment with low food will make high amounts of shell less atractive)

Anyway, the interesting thing is (Or atleast I think it's kinda funny) one bot from a previously dominant family has managed to lodge itself in an alge spinning and shooting constantly, and it's now over 37000 cycles old. I know bots getting lodged isn't unusual, but I've never seen a bot last this long. The shots kill anything trying to aproach it, so it never gets nudged or attacked... I think it might die when costs get higher, but I'm not realy sure how long it can last this way.
This is probably just something that happens all the time, but to me 37000 cycles seems like a lot, haven't been running a lot of evo sims...
Title: Come join the F1 megaverse!
Post by: EricL on April 21, 2008, 03:20:40 PM
Quote from: Moonfisher
Sweet, was running a no cost sim filled with alge and nothing else on IM for a couple of hours, and nothing came in.
Atleast I can see stuff going on in other peoples sims, but I still want to see A_supremus and the teleporters just don't seem to be working
My sims were down for awhile.  Try it now.

Title: Come join the F1 megaverse!
Post by: rsucoop on April 25, 2008, 07:54:29 PM
How do I et internet mode to work? It says it cant find files? Its RTE 76
Title: Come join the F1 megaverse!
Post by: Testlund on April 25, 2008, 08:00:54 PM
Quote from: Numsgil
Well, I certainly get it on mine, the few times I run IM, so I don't think it's just you

I've been trying it again tonight. Worked nice in the beginning, then I started getting more and more time outs and now my sim has stayed completely frozen, internet log staying on 0 for more than 20 minutes. Anyone else getting this? I'm wondering if it may be a bug introduced in one of the latest drops. I can test it with my evosim, just to see if it may be sim specific.
Title: Come join the F1 megaverse!
Post by: Testlund on April 25, 2008, 08:06:44 PM
Actually, just after I posted this I saw a glimpse of the counter in the log window running. Now it stays on 0 again, so I don't know what's the problem.
Title: Come join the F1 megaverse!
Post by: Numsgil on April 25, 2008, 08:10:21 PM
Quote from: rsucoop
How do I et internet mode to work? It says it cant find files? Its RTE 76

You should just be able to push the button.  If it's not that simple for you (it crashes, or whatever), then it's a bug.  Post it in the bug forum and let Eric play around with it.

@Testlund: I'm not sure if it's ever totally frozen for me, but it certainly takes its sweet time when the connection goes bad.  (What seems to be happening is that it loses track of the connections and tries to open 3 simultaneous FTP connections, which our FTP server won't allow.  So after that happens the program will never be able to connect, and you'll have to restart DB.)
Title: Come join the F1 megaverse!
Post by: EricL on April 25, 2008, 08:18:34 PM
And then all the FTP operations time out at 60 seconds per.  The program's still running, it's just waiting 60 secodns for each IM communication attempt and there are a dozen or more for each sync cycle, which is why it appreas to freeze for long periods when this happens.

I'll work on the out of proc IM communication code this weekend.   Going to also switch to a new server shortly.
Title: Come join the F1 megaverse!
Post by: Testlund on April 25, 2008, 09:30:35 PM
Quote from: EricL
Going to also switch to a new server shortly.

Yay!
Title: Come join the F1 megaverse!
Post by: Testlund on April 26, 2008, 09:02:32 AM
IM seems to have worked better for me with my evosim. Haven't got many bots though, just Preditor14, Seasnake1.1 and Alga Minimalis. They all died quickly. I think Seasnake was just a single bot that came through, so I couldn't even locate it. Only Alga Minimalis managed to survive for a bit, got cancerous and dissapeared, leaving a cloud of shots.
Title: Come join the F1 megaverse!
Post by: bacillus on April 27, 2008, 08:00:16 PM
BWMHAHAHAHAHAHA!
I have constructed an evil bot that bombs other sims:

'IM Killbot
'fixes itself in place, then as soon as it teleports, spreads a virus that causes mayhem
'not quite as disruptive as I'd hoped, not that I was going to use it anyway....
'no other sim is ever on when my one is
def hibernate 999
def origx 997
def origy 996

cond
 *.robage 1 =
start
 .fixpos inc
 .hibernate inc
 *.xpos .origx store
 *.ypos .origy store
 *.thisgene .delgene store
stop

cond
 *.xpos *.origx !%=
 *.ypos *.origy !%=
start
 0 .hibernate store
stop

cond
 *.eye5 40 >
start
 -6 .shoot store
stop

cond
 *.hibernate 0 =
 *.robage 10 >
start
 10 .up store
 10 .dx store
 -1 .shoot store
 0 .fixpos store
 *.nrg 100 sub sgn 0 floor 25 mult .repro store
 *.thisgene .mkvirus store
 *.nrg 2 div .vshoot store
stop
Title: Come join the F1 megaverse!
Post by: mm130k on October 11, 2009, 11:45:54 PM
hi im new to dawinbots and I cant conect to the server for online f1. can eny one hep?
Title: Come join the F1 megaverse!
Post by: Testlund on October 12, 2009, 11:57:45 AM
The server is probably offline. It's been a bit low here for awhile so maybe there aren't any who runs in internet mode.

I think Numsgil and Prsn828 is busy with DB3. In fact I think they are so busy with it that we might even have something to try out this autumn.  

 
Title: Come join the F1 megaverse!
Post by: Numsgil on October 12, 2009, 12:39:54 PM
The server for IM is the same one that runs the forum, so there shouldn't be a problem there.  Basically the issue is on the client side-- the Visual Basic 6 FTP controls are really really bugged.

If the error you get is that it can't disconnect, try letting it run for a bit anyway and see if you don't get a few bots going to and from.
Title: Come join the F1 megaverse!
Post by: mm130k on October 17, 2009, 09:41:42 PM
It is not that I cant disconect its that every time I try to conect my computer sends me an eror mesage and exits dawinbots.
Title: Come join the F1 megaverse!
Post by: Moonfisher on October 18, 2009, 09:03:52 PM
Having the same problem with DB 2.43.1L, crashes when I try to connect to IM. Didn't use to have any problems as far as I recall... probably need to delete some corrupt file or something...
But last I checked I couldn't find anyone on IM for a while, so haven't been in a rush to figure out whats wrong.
Title: Come join the F1 megaverse!
Post by: Numsgil on October 22, 2009, 01:42:48 PM
Try deleting the "Sharing" directory (I think that's the one), and see if it recreates it.  I think there's a bug where if the folders are half created or something it will crash.
Title: Come join the F1 megaverse!
Post by: Ammeh on February 18, 2010, 05:16:13 AM
Anybody on IM, have you seen my HSLiteSammeh? How is it doing?

In my sim it was dominating until I introduced FruitFliesv0.21, it's still putting up a good fight though.
Title: Come join the F1 megaverse!
Post by: happyhamsterchan on May 11, 2010, 10:22:08 PM
nopee
Title: Come join the F1 megaverse!
Post by: Billy on May 12, 2010, 04:29:55 AM
Quote from: happyhamsterchan
nopee
That post you're relying to is very old... it was about old IM.
Title: Come join the F1 megaverse!
Post by: happyhamsterchan on May 12, 2010, 12:01:48 PM
o
Title: Come join the F1 megaverse!
Post by: mm130k on May 31, 2010, 08:36:41 PM
is anyone still running internet mode now??
Title: Come join the F1 megaverse!
Post by: Billy on June 01, 2010, 06:16:55 AM
Quote from: mm130k
is anyone still running internet mode now??
I am.
Title: Re: Come join the F1 megaverse!
Post by: rwill128 on August 06, 2012, 03:18:34 PM
Is anyone still running it now? (2+ years later)

If not, can anyone direct me to some interesting threads about what eventually happened? I'd love to hear about the mutation results of such a large sim.
Title: Re: Come join the F1 megaverse!
Post by: Botsareus on August 06, 2012, 03:49:03 PM
We never really got anything solid out of it. I am planning to try again once we re-work the IM to be p2p.
Title: Re: Come join the F1 megaverse!
Post by: Tilthanseco on August 06, 2012, 07:34:29 PM
http://forum.darwinbots.com/index.php/topic,2411.0.html (http://forum.darwinbots.com/index.php/topic,2411.0.html)

This is a nice looking history; and some is humorous.
Title: Re: Come join the F1 megaverse!
Post by: Botsareus on August 07, 2012, 11:24:56 AM
Nice find Tilthanseco.
That system worked pretty well, why did we abandon it?
Title: Re: Come join the F1 megaverse!
Post by: SlyStalker on March 09, 2013, 03:08:47 AM
so is this internet mode like a massive world where many species of bots come and compete?  :huh:
Title: Re: Come join the F1 megaverse!
Post by: Botsareus on March 09, 2013, 03:48:02 PM
Internet mode adds a (hidden inbound) and outbound teleporter to your simulation. You can set it up so you have a bunch of different setting environments (all under a different instance of DB) all share robots between them. We where trying to allow the instances of DB not only run on a local computer but be shared trough FTP, this lets anyone on any computer share the robots. That did not work very well due to how FTP works. The new idea will be to use a p2p algo. similar to the way torrents work. The problem is a p2p program is extremely painful to program.
Title: Re: Come join the F1 megaverse!
Post by: SlyStalker on March 10, 2013, 12:56:54 AM
so is there a F1 IM world permanently going or do I have to syncronise it with other people? also, how do you set IM up?
Title: Re: Come join the F1 megaverse!
Post by: spike43884 on October 30, 2014, 02:59:11 PM
Ahh, I'll soon throw aggressive dwarfs at ya (if my computer can handle the already enterred bots...that is.)

It should kill everyone here because the arena sounds quite crowded, which it likes.
Title: Re: Come join the F1 megaverse!
Post by: Botsareus on October 30, 2014, 09:37:07 PM
Peter setup a version of IM, it is actually cleaner then my p2p idea. Although, probably Ammehs IM is still being managed by the AI haters.  :D
Title: Re: Come join the F1 megaverse!
Post by: Botsareus on March 29, 2016, 07:44:12 PM
Numsgil:

Quote
The server for IM is the same one that runs the forum, so there shouldn't be a problem there.  Basically the issue is on the client side-- the Visual Basic 6 FTP controls are really really bugged.

If the error you get is that it can't disconnect, try letting it run for a bit anyway and see if you don't get a few bots going to and from.

Moonfisher:
Quote
Having the same problem with DB 2.43.1L, crashes when I try to connect to IM. Didn't use to have any problems as far as I recall... probably need to delete some corrupt file or something...
But last I checked I couldn't find anyone on IM for a while, so haven't been in a rush to figure out whats wrong.

I think Moonfisher here has some credibility because he wrote some really good bots. And he clearly says that a problem did NOT happen before as far as he can recall. So Numsgil, I think there is more going on here other than COM controls being buggy. Explain to me why I am wrong here?. And yes, I know it is repetitive... but your 100% certainty I was imagining things is looking more like 60% at this point.

I am not writing about stuff like this to piss you off Numsgil. I am not looking really hard for someone to blame for this. Because that is worse than playing poker against professionals. I am just stating the facts and backing up my story of what happened in my case.