Darwinbots Forum
Code center => Suggestions => Topic started by: k0zm0 on March 23, 2005, 06:01:31 AM
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O.K. I'm starting to be very pissed about everything I read here.
Let us remember that DB is a "virtual world" - not "real".
So we don't need to be very precise.
I don't think there is a computer in the world, that can calculate every condition that exist in nature, so we should simplify it.
Let us simplify nature.
1. gather info
2. make it simple
As I know, DB 3.0 will contain CO2 and O2 levels (and other?)in the e-grid, but you can't see it. Why would you? The same is with enzymes. Why do we need their presence? Let's just asume they are there. Anyway, if we add to much stuff to DB, it's gonna become more and more complex, what meens, it's gonna become more and more unstable.
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its not real coz we havent made it real. we make it more real like. and by making it more complex the bots get mroe options, and why shhould we asume they are there? its like whit ethern they had in the begining of 20th centry. they asumed it was tehre and adepted all the results to match it. which is wrong, dont asume anything. and simple=bad, if nature have wanted it to be simple we would still be a pathetic bacteria. you wanna be one?
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simple things for a simple mind, complex things for a complex mind
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Kozmo, why are you pissed off? The idea to go in the direction of enzymes was accepted together by all people on the board. You've never raised your voice to argue against it. Were we supposed to guess that you'll be pissed off?
If you want your opinion heard, simply state it. People listen.
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and why getting pissed of by that we want more options? if you want it simple use an old version if you want. ur pissing me of by bieng pissed of by nothing
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K0zmo, you were the one to suggest O2 and CO2 in the first place!
Remember? (http://darwinbots.proboards20.com/index.cgi?board=general&action=display&num=1108037551)
Let's remember that what we're doing here is adding complexdity, which is different from making hte program complicated. Complexity allows emergence, which is wht ALife is all about.
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I understand k0zmo's irritation. The next DB version will be a lot more complex, and without proper documentation it will 'bounce off' "newbies" because of it's sheer complexity...
:) <=advanced DB-dudes
:huh: <=not so advanced DB-dude
:wacko: <=New botmaker
:tantrum: <= K0zmo (just kiddding :) )
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Someday, after I get the basic mebo system, etc. in place, I'll sit down and start a wiki-esque help file.
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For now all we will need is to add to the in-game help that already exists. We are still a little behind there. I have most (not sure if all) of 2.35 up there but none of the real new stuff.
:D PY :D
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Guys, I hate to tell you this, but I can barely get my head round all the new functions that have been added since I joined. Addmittedly this is because I haven't tried, but it still shows that the point of newbie hosing was reached long, long ago.
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So obviously the answer is to not try to get your head around it all at once.
Darwinbots will probably eventually be a system too complex for any single person to understand entirely. That's good. Real life is kind of that way.
As long as the new added parts don't demand you understand how they work, what's the problem. Use them or not.
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So, what we need is some default settings that are very logical and fun to watch. maybe default to some sim with preset bots. Also only very basic controls should be available on the surface and a tutorial that does not explain all the nuances but rather the general ideas.
The default bots that come with the program should be very different in their behaviour from each other and have descriptive names. So that a newbie could make a sim like this: "Hmm, let's start with having grass. And some cows... And some wolves. Let's see what it looks like".
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I agree.
When you first get the program, it has you run T Preservans, which has got to be the least exciting species on the face of the planet.
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I know several people who have downloaded DB and run the first cheasey, inefficient little robots then deleted it in disgust before they ever really figure out what is going on.
My brother is one. I finally persuaded him to download DB about a month back. He took one look at it then deleted the program.
"couldn't get on with it" he said
He has just (last month) been awarded his pHd in Optical laser Physics so this is nothing to do with complexity and a whole lot to do with lack of fun in the early, let's figure out how it works, days.
DB needs to be more fun from the start if we want more people.
:( PY :(
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I already mentined it, but a more updated web-site with explanations and pictures would also help. I could work on that if someone gave me access to it...
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PY, could you contact Carlo? Is he even alive at all?
He's only posted once since I joined.
I know alot of fun we could have with the DB homepage. Set up a coop team of people to work on it.
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Yes it could be worth a shot. I will send him an email.
:D PY :D
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And now somethink completly different!
Let me explain myself...
Kozmo, why are you pissed off? The idea to go in the direction of enzymes was accepted together by all people on the board. You've never raised your voice to argue against it. Were we supposed to guess that you'll be pissed off?
If you want your opinion heard, simply state it. People listen.
I thought, why bother?
K0zmo, you were the one to suggest O2 and CO2 in the first place!
I did, and as I've been told (not directly!!!), the air wasn't that important, so it should be in the backround. Just think of it it's there... That I didn't like... And I still don't like it now...
I understand k0zmo's irritation. The next DB version will be a lot more complex, and without proper documentation it will 'bounce off' "newbies" because of it's sheer complexity..
newbie? newbie? I'm sticking with DB since version 1.0
Anyway, all of you are missing my point... When you add new things to DB, dont make it too complicated, make it simple... Why must be there so many enzymes?
when setting what bot is going to eat, the program could autoselect enzymes ...
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it shall be many to give many options, you want to eat many kinds of food, not just 1 all the time right?
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Anyway, all of you are missing my point... When you add new things to DB, dont make it too complicated, make it simple... Why must be there so many enzymes?
when setting what bot is going to eat, the program could autoselect enzymes ...
Don't get al worried about this. Your point is exactly what I have been fighting for all the way through the discussion.
I like it simple but only where the programmer/DNA code actually interfaces with the program. Behind the scenes where everything is calculated, it needs to be as complex as possible so that many more options and specializations are available through evolution or very clever coding of DNA.
The bit you will see in the robot DNA file will not be changed a huge amount. Only a couple of extra controls and even those are optional. There is no intention to need to control each and every enzyme manually. They will be autoselected to some degree but with the provision of DNA/manual override to increase efficiency if you want to get into that.
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At first I was against O2 and CO2 because I thought they were entirely pointless.
However, as I delved into the metabolic systems, I realized some are oxygen dependant, some are anerobic, and some are eoxygen poisoned. So O2 at least is needed to really help add distinct niches.
And if you have O2, you might as well add CO2.
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What about other materia?
How's the progress?
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K0zmo said
newbie? newbie? I'm sticking with DB since version 1.0
That remark wasn't intented for you, sorry if it appeared to be so... :unsure:
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And if you have O2, you might as well add CO2.
Too right. You can't have plants, and photosynthisis without CO2. They need the Carbon to build their bodies.