Darwinbots Forum

General => Off Topic => RANT => Topic started by: MysticalDumpling on March 12, 2014, 03:34:40 PM

Title: DB looks like it is slowly dying
Post by: MysticalDumpling on March 12, 2014, 03:34:40 PM
From what I see in the forum, all the major members have gone AWOL and  not so many new people are coming in- we MUST share DB mainstreme before we go the way of Evolve4. Any ideas?

I'm making a website with Weebly- I can't get a free domain, and Weebly hosts sites- I once had a website creator which offered a large choice of hosts, but I can't find it... I might also create a Facebook page.
Title: Re: DB looks like it is slowly dying
Post by: Peter on March 12, 2014, 06:16:43 PM
I don't know really. Are there big alive forums/sites where DB can be promoted?

What do you plan to do with a domain/weebly? .tk domains are free I suppose.
Title: Re: DB looks like it is slowly dying
Post by: MysticalDumpling on March 12, 2014, 07:06:07 PM
OOH. Better find meself a .tk. Heh heh heh
Title: Re: DB looks like it is slowly dying
Post by: MysticalDumpling on March 12, 2014, 07:41:42 PM
I got one! www.darwinbots.tk (http://www.darwinbots.tk)
Title: Re: DB looks like it is slowly dying
Post by: Botsareus on March 12, 2014, 11:22:29 PM
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all the major members have gone AWOL

Who do you consider major members?

Most people are not posting right now because they have nothing new to share.
Title: Re: DB looks like it is slowly dying
Post by: Numsgil on March 13, 2014, 12:20:34 AM
This is pretty much the level of activity we've always had.  As old members move on to other things new ones come in.
Title: Re: DB looks like it is slowly dying
Post by: FadingMist on March 13, 2014, 08:58:34 AM
Hi. I'm 'new' here. I have get know about DB year ago. But only after passed year I remembered about this sim.
P.S. I from Russia, so bear with my accent.
Title: Re: DB looks like it is slowly dying
Post by: MysticalDumpling on March 13, 2014, 05:51:20 PM
It's ok, Botsareus's is waaaaaay worse  :D
Title: Re: DB looks like it is slowly dying
Post by: Botsareus on March 14, 2014, 12:16:44 PM
 >:D
Title: Re: DB looks like it is slowly dying
Post by: Moonfisher on March 31, 2014, 05:55:48 AM
I'm not completely AWOL.
But wasn't that much happening in the leagues, IM went down at some point, my evo sims stagnated...
Figured I would wait for DB3.

One thing though.
I originally found DB because I had tried gun tactix, where you write some code for little robots shooting each-other, and I was wondering if there was other good programming games out there.
I found a listing that mentioned DB and said it was actually a programming game but an A life simulator, however the leagues allowed for programming battles.
And I was very surprised to find this lost gem. The programming game part of DB is way more interesting than the other games I've tried. The way poison, venom, viruses and replication and all that works. It makes for endless possibilities, whereas robot fighting games are very basic and straight forward.

Basically, what I say is, look at these listings out there:
(Taken from wikipedia: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Programming_game)

- This is the first link on wikipedia to a place listing programming games, and DB is not on the list. (There is a button allowing you to add it to the list though. I could add it, but maybe someone else can write a better description, but keep in mind this is with programming games in mind, so focus on the leagues and how DB is so different from the regular (booring) programming games.)
http://programminggames.org/AllPages.aspx

- This is the second link on wikipedia, but the site is very hard to navigate. Also could not find DB in there anywhere, but then again could hardly find my way anywhere.
http://www.dmoz.org/Games/Video_Games/Simulation/Programming_Games/

- The third link on wikipedia actually has DB, but it's pointing to an old page (http://digilander.libero.it/darwinbots/dwienglish.html):
http://www.aiforge.net/game-links.htm (Just ctrl+F and type darwin)

- We are actually listed on wikipedia here:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_digital_organism_simulators#Notable_simulators
(However there is no link to the new site or the forum, and not even a description (Red link))

- Also one more list, not as extensive, but may be possible to submit DB:
http://www.pouet.net/topic.php?which=6653


So basically if we want some more trafic I would start by adding a description with a link to the forum instead of the red link on wikipedia.
(And make sure to tag it as a Programming Game as well as an ALife, to make sure it'll show up here: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Category:Programming_games)
Then I would submit DB as a programming game on the listings where we're not mentioned (If possible with a description of why DB is such a great programming game)
And for the ones with old or broken links it may be possible to submit a request to update it.

That might help start things up a bit. I mean currently it's like we don't exist.

Another thing could be just adding a blog about alternative programming games, and mention DB among them (As the best one of course), and maybe encourage others to list their favorite programming games. And then add a reference to that blog from the main wiki page on programming games.
Maybe even add a part directly in the wiki page, mentioning that sometimes even ALife simulation games can serve as great programming games, such as the leagues in Darwin Bots (Linking to the description of DrawinBots on wikipedia).

Basically there's a LOT we could do to increase traffic here. Can't guarantee it'll work, but won't know unless we try. (Who knows, we may even get more people who want to help with DB3)

I suspect someone more "official" and with better writing skills may want to do these things. But if not then I'll volunteer to do the things listed above. (Let me know)

Also while on the topic, might be worth checking out this other post concerning ease of getting started with the leagues:
(Currently I can't get them to work actually, but may be doing something wrong)
http://forum.darwinbots.com/index.php/topic,1755.0.html
Title: Re: DB looks like it is slowly dying
Post by: Botsareus on April 02, 2014, 01:34:30 PM
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suspect someone more "official" and with better writing skills may want to do these things.

I suspect i do not fit both categories. At least, according to moonfisher. After pouring my heart and sol into this project for two years.
Title: Re: DB looks like it is slowly dying
Post by: Peter on April 02, 2014, 02:06:10 PM
You're the main coder of DB2, can't get much more official.
...your writing skills on the other hand.

Lets add DB as programming game when leagues can be run very easily. (ie. it works immediately out of the box.) There's been a lack of new league bots and the new chloroplasts opens up possibilities for new league contenders. (what are chloroplast settings in F1?)

Stuff like league bots should be added at install(and league folder structure?). Running a league should be as easy as running a sim.
Title: Re: DB looks like it is slowly dying
Post by: Botsareus on April 02, 2014, 02:11:32 PM
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(ie. it works immediately out of the box.)

They do, no one tested them yet...

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Stuff like league bots should be added at install(and league folder structure?)

It is pointless to keep updating the install with all current league robots, as there is more then 600 and new robots are added all the time.
There is no 'league folder structure.' All you have to do is put the bots into a folder of your choice, and put that path into global settings. The path defaults to "C:\" so if you put your robots directly on the C: drive it will work fine.
Title: Re: DB looks like it is slowly dying
Post by: Botsareus on April 02, 2014, 02:15:06 PM
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(what are chloroplast settings in F1?)

The settings are the same as they where before chloroplasts, I just multiply by 2 to correct for vegys starting up with zero. All these settings are already build in. I even added disqualification rules which the program was clearly lagging. Should make it easyer to figure out if a robot really belongs to a specific league but not fool prof.
Title: Re: DB looks like it is slowly dying
Post by: Peter on April 02, 2014, 02:33:31 PM
Ah, ok. Had the old system in mind. Actually liked the semi hard coded folders. And I don't think it's pointless to renew league bots at new drops, but that's me. (ofc. not all 600 bots are necessarily)

How much nrg do the chloroplasts in league mode get? Default setting?
Title: Re: DB looks like it is slowly dying
Post by: Botsareus on April 02, 2014, 02:47:18 PM
They used to be 40(F1) and 30(other)
I changed them to 80 and 60 for reasons I outlined above. (Sorry, I need to start posting everything in one post)
But the cool thing is, these buttons now only change the settings. So really, you can have any settings you want now. Anyone up for a pondmode league?

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Actually liked the semi hard coded folders

I had to do something about that for two reasons:

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(ofc. not all 600 bots are necessarily)

The changes to the program with chloroplasts are so drastic that I prefer (and will soon) run a tournament league first to get some handle on what robots are actually good now. A little more work for me as I will have to go trough the leagues and download each robot, but I will be happy doing it.

Title: Re: DB looks like it is slowly dying
Post by: Peter on April 02, 2014, 03:24:21 PM
Isn't the lower area taken at start not enough to offset the costs of making chloroplasts?

Edit: Is it possible stop DB from popping up every time it restarts?
Title: Re: DB looks like it is slowly dying
Post by: Botsareus on April 03, 2014, 08:46:44 PM
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Isn't the lower area taken at start not enough to offset the costs of making chloroplasts?

I am not worried about the costs, I am worried about the fact that robots are loaded in with zero. They will have to wait to reach 16K to start getting there normal amount, as I did not expend 'special chloroplast settings' to leagues as I want it to be more natural.

Quote
Is it possible stop DB from popping up every time it restarts?

Thank you for testing it, I was not sure it will work at all.  :P

Try this one, hope it works:
Title: Re: DB looks like it is slowly dying
Post by: Moonfisher on April 04, 2014, 07:31:49 AM
I actually couldn't get the stepladder tournament to work... not sure what I did wrong. Followed the instructions. It restarts, but doesn't start the stepladder league.
I don't have the source checked out, and not gonna go there at this time. No time for it, and remember how much the global variables in VB6 bugged me last time I had a look at it.

On that other subject, we wouldn't need to keep updating bots all the time, but would be cool there was a default path set, pointing at a folder with the top 30 F1 bots from some date (Wouldn't need to be updated all the time, should just have something).

Basically the first thing I did when I downloaded DB the first time was to start working on an F1 league bot, and I kept running the F1 league in stepladder mode to see how far it would get. When it got beat I would be running it against the bot who beat it, and once I could beat that bot I would go back to running the stepladder, eager to see how far it would make it now.

Like an old school Van Dam movie or something.

For me this had a lot of appeal and I really enjoyed that part. And I think there may be a lot of people who are into programming games who would enjoy this part as well, so would be cool if it was just ready to go. Basically just add your bot and hit some button to run it against the F1 league. (Could be a button bellow the 3 buttons who adjust the settings that simply launches the stepladder league with the bot you have added as the contender.)

Btw, will chloroplast be enabled for the competing bots in F1 mode?
Seems like there would be some endless battles. Basically any bots that amass chloroplast and aren't able to kill the opponent will end up fighting forever. Some fights can take ages already, with endless nrg supply it'll just be endless for some fights. You could enter bots that only run away and defend themselves but never attack, and any bot that can't keep up with it would have an endless match right there already...
(But gonna see how my new version of Fruit Flies does on IM though)
Title: Re: DB looks like it is slowly dying
Post by: Botsareus on April 04, 2014, 10:20:05 AM
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It restarts, but doesn't start the stepladder league.

Give me zip of your robot folder you used. Would not hurt to give me the global.gset file also. I am assuming your settings are default F1 settings.  I'll see if I can figure it out.

edit: For now you can try deleting your 'autosaved.gset' and 'safemode.gset' files and see if it works. Program gets grumpy if it was end tasked while trying to setup a league.

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but would be cool there was a default path set, pointing at a folder with the top 30 F1 bots from some date

I'll consider it for the next time I do a install drop.

Quote
Btw, will chloroplast be enabled for the competing bots in F1 mode?

Yea, just realized I have to disable them for leagues. Am planning to work on it today actually.



 
Title: Re: DB looks like it is slowly dying
Post by: Botsareus on April 04, 2014, 10:49:05 AM
Quote
and remember how much the global variables in VB6 bugged me last time I had a look at it.

Well first of, thank you for finally replying. It was beginning to get me worked up a little. I did not even know you helped on vb6 at some point. I know the 'visual' part of vb6 is lagging big time, but, I do prefer to program that way (just me.) All I am saying is it will not hurt for you to give it a shot if we do not figure it out in the next couple of days as I got plans.

Thank You
- Bots
Title: Re: DB looks like it is slowly dying
Post by: Numsgil on April 04, 2014, 01:11:30 PM
The F1 arena is small enough that I'm not sure it is actually possible for an endless battle, even with infinite nrg (well, as long as combat does more damage than chloroplasts could gain).  Could run like molasses but eventually I'd expect one or the other bot to win, if for no other reason than they'd physically run out of space to do anything but battle.

May be worth considering adding it until such time that the problems become evident.  And then we can either rebalance the chloroplasts or remove them from league combat, depending on the exact situation.
Title: Re: DB looks like it is slowly dying
Post by: Botsareus on April 04, 2014, 04:42:15 PM
The other problem with having chloroplasts is that some robots (in relatively rare cases) may use these memory locations to do something else.
I think we should just add a chloroplast enabled version of the F1 league honestly. Call it the 'Chloroplast League.'

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Some fights can take ages already

I did add time limit on a league round btw.

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may need to rebalance the chloroplasts

Fun fact:

As you may be aware I am experimenting with my survival evolution methods again. On two occasions the 'mutating' robot evolved chloroplasts vs the 'base' robot. Which basically led to a nice stable ecosystem where none of the opposing robots where losing. This is what led me to put that 'disable chloroplasts' check-box in the first place. Therefor, imo the chloroplasts are very well balanced right now. They suite there purpose.



Moonfisher, if you still can not get it to work and I am away:

Look under
Code: [Select]
MDIForm1 > MDIForm_Load() > Select Case x_restartmode
If it makes it this far then the league round should start up correctly.
Title: Re: DB looks like it is slowly dying
Post by: Peter on April 04, 2014, 04:56:46 PM
Indirectly the alge bot that's in a fight can be used as a infinite energy source. The main reason I was interested in the feeding rate was because I assumed league bots could use it too. I think the damage league bots can do should be quite a bit more than chloroplasts could generate. If chloroplasts can I'd say they're overpowered.

Edit: just as a clarification.

1. Pick bots at 'random(or whatever order)' and generate a stepladder league one by one.
2. Bots are deleted from the initial picked folder then put in the db/leagues folder, with 1 -, 2 - put in front of filenames to show the position.
3. No support to run against already existing stepladder leagues, to update a league with a new bot.

Try this one, hope it works:
nope, still popping up in front at each restart.
Title: Re: DB looks like it is slowly dying
Post by: Botsareus on April 04, 2014, 08:48:39 PM
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I think the damage league bots can do should be quite a bit more than chloroplasts could generate.

I get it now. Good call. I will lower the chloroplast rates to what they where before.
Title: Re: DB looks like it is slowly dying
Post by: NotLegalTender on April 07, 2014, 12:25:07 AM
I had promoted this site at the speculative evolution forums in the past. Also, I just posted a topic about this simulator on the species forum.

http://www.speciesgame.com/forum/index.php
Title: Re: DB looks like it is slowly dying
Post by: Moonfisher on April 07, 2014, 01:32:18 AM
Ok, if I have time I'll check out the code and run from source.
But will try the other things mentioned first.

Concerning Chloroplast I think sooner or later there will be the issue of 2 bots who are fairly evenly matched and also use Chloroplast.
Normally starvation and general luck with alge spawn will tend to determine a winner.
But of course I only know the chloroplast settings for 2.47.00, so not sure how much it'll be lowered.
The ones I tried went up to 16K chloroplast, but smaller bots started getting heavy around 2-300
However if your energy consumption is very low, then 100 chloroplast is actually enough to sustain you.

In either case off the top of my head, a  bot that produces chloroplast and a lot of slime would likely be able to survive against Fruit Flies, but it would never be able to kill them all. The energy gain from Chloroplast would have to be very low to avoid this.
Title: Re: DB looks like it is slowly dying
Post by: Henk on April 30, 2014, 10:34:28 AM
This is pretty much the level of activity we've always had.  As old members move on to other things new ones come in.

As proof: I'm such an old member... I'm amazed to see this software still going after 11(!) years. :)

Recently I re-downloaded Darwinbots and I am again having fun, together with a friend. A lot has changed in how stuff works, though!