Darwinbots Forum

General => Biology => Topic started by: Zelos on October 19, 2005, 11:34:56 AM

Title: Fluid
Post by: Zelos on October 19, 2005, 11:34:56 AM
Life have to be in a fluid to work. And im pretty sure it doesnt need to be water. And that it shall be polirized, like water. How many liquids is like that? I know:
H2O (water)
NH3 (ammoniak)
Title: Fluid
Post by: shvarz on October 19, 2005, 12:00:45 PM
You are not being logical.  Life as we know it depends on water.  If you are talking about "life that we don't know about", then it can be anything, from crystals to ionized plasma...
Title: Fluid
Post by: Numsgil on October 19, 2005, 12:44:27 PM
Let's assume you mean life constructed from bilipid like membranes.

Then yes, the medium would need to be polarized, and the interior of the cell would be, well, not.

But there are alot of assumptuions going into that.  Like:  life is only constructable via lipid-like membranes.

Really I think anything that can replicate and has a clear boundary between self and non-self can eventually become complex enough to be life.
Title: Fluid
Post by: shvarz on October 19, 2005, 01:00:39 PM
Well, see - that's the problem.  If you bring in known substances and mechanisms, then you impose the limits of those substances.  I am pretty sure that lipid membranes as we know it cannot exist in pure ammonia.
Title: Fluid
Post by: Numsgil on October 19, 2005, 01:05:24 PM
Probably not, but could something that had similar properties exist in a liquid ammonia environment?

Really a lipid is basically a polar head and a non-polar tail.  So it's not inconcievable that some sort of lipid-like substance could form at the incredibly chilly temperature of liquid ammonia.

Thing is the chemistry of non-standard temperature/pressure is largely unexplored compared to the room temperature stuff (for obvious reasons).
Title: Fluid
Post by: Zelos on October 19, 2005, 01:18:23 PM
this is just theoretical. We dont know if it exists or not. I just want possible chemicals that can support life. It dont need to be liquid in rooms temperature. It just need to have a liquid phase at some temperature.

shvarz, I allways keep my self to physic. So this MIGHT be possible. but maybe some life out there have succeded in living in ammoniak
Title: Fluid
Post by: Numsgil on October 19, 2005, 02:25:31 PM
I think you're right Zelos, liquid ammonia is polar, so it theoretically could support some sort of life similar in structure to ours.

This is not true with liquid methane (like on that Saturn moon they reproted had liquid methane recently).

Also, on the other side of the temperature scale, I think they feel that ionic life might be possible.  Things based on ball lightning for instance.  All conjecture of course...  Plasmas, you see, have all sorts of interesting properties.

So some sort of life forms could theoretically evolve on certain suns in their ionosphere.
Title: Fluid
Post by: Zelos on October 19, 2005, 02:35:53 PM
now we are getting of subject. Is there anymore polar substances? it must be. is ther any list or can you guys plz tell me those you know?
Title: Fluid
Post by: PurpleYouko on October 19, 2005, 02:43:17 PM
Pure alcohol  :wacko:
Title: Fluid
Post by: Zelos on October 19, 2005, 02:45:18 PM
of course alcohol. but I think its C5 and down, bigger than that the polar propeties simpl become to small. But im after more less known chemicals.
Title: Fluid
Post by: shvarz on October 19, 2005, 02:47:29 PM
This is not true with liquid methane

Well, if you are willing to assume that there may be lipid membranes able to survive in ammonia, then why not assume that there may be membranes that will survive in methane?  Just turn them inside out - polar sides in, hydrophobic sides out :)
Title: Fluid
Post by: Zelos on October 19, 2005, 02:52:06 PM
what does that help? they will wander away cause there is nothing keeping them togather

and shvarz, be mroe open to possibilities. Maybe the alien to visit us/we visit them might be ammonia based and you think "holy shit, you can be based on ammonia"
Title: Fluid
Post by: shvarz on October 19, 2005, 03:30:30 PM
No-no, I am fully open to ammonia-based life.  It is you, who is set on a certain idea - "life requires polarized fluid".

Maybe the alien to visit us/we visit them might be not based on liquid and you think "holy shit, you don't have to be based on liquid"
Title: Fluid
Post by: shvarz on October 19, 2005, 03:31:36 PM
Quote
they will wander away cause there is nothing keeping them togather

Of course there is - same forces that keep lipids together in water.  Exactly the same.
Title: Fluid
Post by: Numsgil on October 19, 2005, 03:37:34 PM
Quote
This is not true with liquid methane

Well, if you are willing to assume that there may be lipid membranes able to survive in ammonia, then why not assume that there may be membranes that will survive in methane?  Just turn them inside out - polar sides in, hydrophobic sides out :)
I won't pretend to be more than a passing ameteur at this, but that actually sounds plausible to me.
Title: Fluid
Post by: Numsgil on October 19, 2005, 03:48:42 PM
I can't seem to find a list of polar liquids...

I think HydroChloric whatever is a polar molecule.  H-Cl

The trick is to find a polar liquid that would likely be formed in large amounts under specific conditions (say, a planet's formation).  That narrows the list considerably.
Title: Fluid
Post by: Zelos on October 21, 2005, 08:37:23 AM
thats a one aswell. those who contain hydrogen is likly to form. and nitrogen should be more than oxygen cause its lighter, but hydrogenflouride is better than chlordide but it should be less of it.
Title: Fluid
Post by: PurpleYouko on October 21, 2005, 08:46:45 AM
The trouble with Hydrogen Fluoride (HF) is that is is highly reactive. It would utterly destroy a cell membane in seconds.
Title: Fluid
Post by: Zelos on October 21, 2005, 10:10:35 AM
on a planet where FH is liquid dont you think life would adept its chemicals to not react with it if it didnt "want" it to happen? anyhow I found a list of how polar the molecules are:
HF 1,91
HCl 1,05
HBr 0,8
HI0,42
H2O 1,84
H2O2 2,12
NH3 1,48
SO2 1,63
NO 0,16
NO2 0,4
CO 0,1
CH3OH 1,7
this is in debyes
Title: Fluid
Post by: PurpleYouko on October 21, 2005, 10:22:35 AM
Trouble is that HF reacts with EVERYTHING

I use it to convert samples of organic tissue, rock, glass, quartz, whatever into liquid form for chemical analysis.

About the only thing it doesn't destroy is Zircon crystals

If you can come up with a way that life could evolve inside a solid zircon crystal then maybe it could work but again the trouble is that although these crystals could initially form as insoluble Zirconium Fluoride, no other chemicals in the chemical soup would be able to leave solution in order to form any viable molecules.
Title: Fluid
Post by: Zelos on October 21, 2005, 10:58:46 AM
well then its a problem. Why is it so reactive?
Title: Fluid
Post by: PurpleYouko on October 21, 2005, 11:41:35 AM
HF in solution (possibly 100% since it is a liquid at normal <19C temperatures) is technically defined as a weak acid.
This definition does not mean what you might think though. A weak acid is one which ionically dissociated in an aqueous medium. HCl and HBr are other weak acids while things like Nitric acid (HNO3) and Sulphuric acid (H2SO4) are considered strong acids.

What make HF so corrosive is not its acidity but is actually the fact that the F- anion is the most electronegative thing known to science. (electronegativity relates to its afinity for electrons) In this state the Fluorine atom has an extra electron which it desperately wants to lose to form a bond with another atom.

Usually F- will prefer to make an ionic bond (salt) with H+ or another electropositive element like Sodium or Potassium but hese bonds are (unfortunately for life forms) transitory. They exist as an equilibrium HF <--> H+ + F-
This means that until the F- anion finds a permanent home in a covalent bond, it just keeps moving around displacing other bonds. Basically it is a wrecking ball that breaks up other molecules. Once it does find a permanent home (usually attached to a carbon atom in place of some useful bond that used to be there or in a very strong ionic bond with one of the rare earth elements) it increases the concentration of free protons in the solution because H+ and F- are no longer in equilibrium.
So as Fluorine is used up, the acidity of the solution also goes up (pH goes down). Now the protons move in and begin reacting with the broken molecules.

The overall result of any object in HF is that you end up with a solution of metallic fluorides and all the Carbon originally present in the object converts to CO2 gas

HF facts

HF is the only solvent known to directly attack glass.

An HF burn on your skin only needs to to be over a 10 square cm area to be fatal.

HF can kill without any visible burn at all on the skin.

F- anions preferentially attack metals. They are able to travel though intact skin and will strip the Calcium from your bones. The H+ is the part that will destroy tissue.

HF gas (>19C) is the most corrosive gas known to science.

Don't mess with HF unless you are highly trained to do so.
Title: Fluid
Post by: Numsgil on October 21, 2005, 11:57:31 AM
So you're saying I should get this looked at?
(http://www.unchosen.co.uk/images/news/foot.jpg)
Title: Fluid
Post by: PurpleYouko on October 21, 2005, 12:04:14 PM
Nahh! I shouldn't bother. Your foot is going to drop off either way. It could also be too late to save your life already so you should just do your best to ignore the excruciating agony and work on DarwinBots while you still have the time.  :D
Title: Fluid
Post by: Zelos on October 21, 2005, 01:36:51 PM
discusting nums, plz dont but those ugly pics on the forum
Title: Fluid
Post by: PurpleYouko on October 21, 2005, 01:50:59 PM
But if you do decide to, please note that at the bottom of the forum you will now find a direct link to image shack so that you can upload your own piccies to their free hosting site then copy the link over to your post. Makes for very fast loading of pictures.   :D  :D  :D
Title: Fluid
Post by: Botsareus on October 21, 2005, 03:03:41 PM
................ .



PY, its a nice little HTML, but you included it sloppy, the "host it" button ends up being cut of by the invison "hosted by" thingy.
Title: Fluid
Post by: Numsgil on October 21, 2005, 03:36:14 PM
Haha, that's awesome.  Gotta love metatags.
Title: Fluid
Post by: PurpleYouko on October 21, 2005, 05:30:39 PM
Quote
................ .



PY, its a nice little HTML, but you included it sloppy, the "host it" button ends up being cut of by the invison "hosted by" thingy.
I didn't write the HTML so don't blame me for the sloppy button. :(
The button looks exactly the same their own site. We are just linking into it. I haven't modified anything in the code.

It looks absolutely perfect in Mozilla firefox anyway.  :P
Title: Fluid
Post by: Griz on October 21, 2005, 05:50:18 PM
Quote
It looks absolutely perfect in Mozilla firefox anyway
sure does.

ah good ... another firefoxer ;)
take back the web!!!
I imagine you have played at reconfiguring yours a bit ...
seems like there's a lot one can do.
I haven't done much but add an extension or two ...
but I certainly do like it.


~griz~
Title: Fluid
Post by: Endy on October 22, 2005, 04:06:09 AM
Quote
About the only thing it doesn't destroy is Zircon crystals

These weird things again, seems like talk about them is everywhere. I ran into an article recently about their stability and use as "time capsuls" to tell about ancient times on earth.
Title: Fluid
Post by: PurpleYouko on October 22, 2005, 01:07:45 PM
Zircon crystals can be used in two different ways to date rocks that contain them The first works and confirms an old earth

The second is a load of old bollox perpetrated by Young Earth Creationists. It has bee thouroughly debunked by real scientists.

The science of this is that when Zircons form in cooling magma, their chemistry strongly rejects the inclusion of Lead atoms while simultaneously favoring the inclusion of Uranium atoms. No atoms of either can ever get in or out of the crystal once it has formed.

Method 1.
Many years later it is possible to measure the ratio of you/Pb, then by applying the known half life of Uranium, you can date the crystal.

Method 2.
During radiactive decay, Uranium undergoes fission which releases an alpha particle (which is basically a helium nucleus). This soon grabs up a few avalable electrons (which are able to freely enter the zircon) to become helium.
By measuring the concentration of He in the zircons, YECs have (wrongly) concluded that there isn't enough there for the Uranium to have been decaying for more than a few thousand years.
Their mistake?
Helium is so small in atomic cross section that it is able to freely travel in and out of the zircons and the surrounding rock so its concentration in the zircons is completely and utterly irrelevent.
They still use this pseudo science to push their religious agendas regardless of the fact that if they are truly scientists then they know beyond a shadow of a doubt that they are dead wrong.

To some people faith just trumps science, no matter how strong the evidence is.   :blink:
Title: Fluid
Post by: Numsgil on October 22, 2005, 01:46:03 PM
What is Zircon?  Is it an element?  It doesn't really ring a bell in my mind...
Title: Fluid
Post by: Griz on October 22, 2005, 03:28:44 PM
Quote
To some people faith just trumps science, no matter how strong the evidence is.
indeed.
we tend to find what we look for ...
whether or not we are aware of our perconceptions/assumptions.
the reason for blind/doubleblind studies.

PY ... are you a chemist and/or physics guy?
I was trained by the navy as a nuclear reactor operator ...
and have been working in nuke instumentation and control systems
for the last 32 years ... more the electronic side of it now days ...
so rarely use all that theory we were taught ...
well ... that includes electronic/transistor theory as well ...
who works on the compnent level anymore? ...
now it's isolate the problem to a chip or board and swap it out. ;)
and you know how it goes ... use it or lose it.

so I enjoy your sojourns into chem and physics.
Title: Fluid
Post by: Brwagur on March 02, 2007, 06:13:01 PM
This is the best list I have found:

HF,NH3, HCl, HBr, HI, OF2, SeCl2, SCl2,PCl3, SO2, Ch3Cl, CH3Br, SeCl, CHCl3, CO(CH3)2, H2S,CH3Cl, KBr & H20(ion-dipole forces), H2O2, CH3OH(methanol),CH3COOH(acetic acid) , CH3NH2 methy amine, C2H5Oh ethyl alcohol, (C6H12O6 glucose), CH3CH2OH ethanol, 1- propanol CH3Ch2CH2OH, 2-propanol CH2CH2OHCH3, 1-butanol CH3CH2CH2CH2OH , acetone (CH3)2CO, H3O+, H202, CH20

Most of these are too large to plausible
Title: Fluid
Post by: Peter on July 03, 2007, 05:25:03 PM
Quote
QUOTE (shvarz @ Oct 19 2005, 01:47 PM)
This is not true with liquid methane

Well, if you are willing to assume that there may be lipid membranes able to survive in ammonia, then why not assume that there may be membranes that will survive in methane? Just turn them inside out - polar sides in, hydrophobic sides out  


I won't pretend to be more than a passing ameteur at this, but that actually sounds plausible to me.

I am reading this, and for some reason I seem to mis some posts,but yes this is said by someone who hasn't got a clue about the buidup of a mulecule,  turn them inside out, what are you talking about. Methane is a carbon atom with 4 hydrox-atoms around it. To say it in simple chemisty carbon with 4 connections is connecting the 4 four hydrox-atoms, how do you want to turn the atomb around and the carbon on te outside and keeping it connected with the hydrox.(I am not sure if the atom H is being said with hydrox in english, but I now it's close and you undstand me.

The reason methane is non-polair is simply becouse, well say it with pictures. That did;nt work let's crete it.
____H____
__H-C-H__
____H____

Here there is on every side an hydrogen, becouse the hydrogen is on every side any charge(+) from the hydrogen is neutralised. Cousing it to be non-polair.
___O(-)__
__/__\___
_H(+)H___

Becouse there is an angle between the hydrox and the oxyen the charge(is this even the correct word) is not being fully neutralised and it is polair.


Quote
This is the best list I have found:

HF,NH3, HCl, HBr, HI, OF2, SeCl2, SCl2,PCl3, SO2, Ch3Cl, CH3Br, SeCl, CHCl3, CO(CH3)2, H2S,CH3Cl, KBr & H20(ion-dipole forces), H2O2, CH3OH(methanol),CH3COOH(acetic acid) , CH3NH2 methy amine, C2H5Oh ethyl alcohol, (C6H12O6 glucose), CH3CH2OH ethanol, 1- propanol CH3Ch2CH2OH, 2-propanol CH2CH2OHCH3, 1-butanol CH3CH2CH2CH2OH , acetone (CH3)2CO, H3O+, H202, CH20

Most of these are too large to plausible

I can even make some up, even without nowing they exist. Well these exist I you you have got 1-propanol and 1-butanol, 2-propanol and 2-butanol exist too, so does 1-propanal and 1-butanal exist and 2-propanal(oh you've got acetone already)and 2-butanal. I gues they are looking at fluid's that could be used for living on other planets. In fact you can say there anything, why in fact does it has to be polair. You have to look at the elements that exist at the planet. For one hydrox, exist everywhere in the universe further we exist mostly out of carbon, oxyen. Like most of the polair's you found. Other close elsements would be sulfur,nitrogen, fosfor and silica. There could really be everything used, if something could be used you're just guesing.

Like anybody is going to post on this anymore.

   I have got the last post, I have got the last post.
Title: Fluid
Post by: Numsgil on July 03, 2007, 11:01:10 PM
Quote from: Peter
I am reading this, and for some reason I seem to mis some posts,but yes this is said by someone who hasn't got a clue about the buidup of a mulecule,  turn them inside out, what are you talking about. Methane is a carbon atom with 4 hydrox-atoms around it. To say it in simple chemisty carbon with 4 connections is connecting the 4 four hydrox-atoms, how do you want to turn the atomb around and the carbon on te outside and keeping it connected with the hydrox.(I am not sure if the atom H is being said with hydrox in english, but I now it's close and you undstand me.

We're not saying that you turn the molecule inside out.  We're saying that you reverse the usual thinking about how lipids (fats) form membranes.  In a non polar fluid, your lipids (one end polar, the other non polar) would have their non polar tails sticking outward into the fluid with their heads sticking "inwards" forming the membrane, which is reverse of how they work in a polar fluid like water.

Check out this site (http://www.ibiblio.org/virtualcell/textbook/chapter3/cmf1.htm).  The round balls are the polar "heads".  The squiggly lines are the non polar "tails".  These "bilipid" membranes are the building block of life because they help seperate things that are in the cell from things that are not in the cell.

If you reversed them, and had their heads connect instead of their tails, you might be able to construct life in a non polar fluid.  Maybe.  Anyway it's as plausible as anything else I've heard.  And would allow life to form in methane seas, which are not unheard of in our own solar system.

Quote
Other close elsements would be sulfur,nitrogen, fosfor and silica. There could really be everything used, if something could be used you're just guesing.

The problem as you climb down the periodic table is two fold:

1.  These chemicals are scarcer, and so it's hard to believe that life would use them over their more prolific cousins.
2.  Mass: Amino acids on up would all be considerably heavier.  It would be more difficult to ingest and expel them.

Quote
 I have got the last post, I have got the last post.

Title: Fluid
Post by: cliftut on August 06, 2007, 04:19:00 AM
I don't have a ton of technical knowledge concerning this stuff, and I haven't read all of the posts, but I thought I ought to mention this.

I read somewhere, probably a science magazine, that scientists found single-celled organisms living fairly deep underground between rocks. Not only were they living in this environment where it was thought life couldn't live, but to do so, they were feeding on methane. Their were able to metabolize the methane and use it for energy. If I remember correctly, they were actually using the methane in place of oxygen because oxygen is rare at those depths. I can't remember all of it, though, so I could be wrong.

So an organism probably could live in a methane rich environment as long as there were enough of other substances for it to live.

If anyone knows anything about these organisms, correct me or elaborate upon this. It's not exactly what you were talking about, but I think it's related.