Darwinbots Forum
Bots and Simulations => Evolution and Internet Sharing Sims => Topic started by: Elite on February 15, 2006, 12:59:45 PM
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What are the best mutation rates to use for a mutation sim?
I find that the default settings are too low. After 120,000 cycles I ended up with two mutations:
Changed cond at pos 13 from != to !=
Changed val at pos 45 from 0 to 0
And I had increased the mutation factor by 2x!
:(
I've had some sucess in the past from using 4-8x mutation rates.
What settings have you lot had sucess with?
-
you have to resist the urge to bump up the mutation rates too high.
Ideally we only want one mutation every few generations otherwise you just end up with a screen full of robots with nothing in common with each other when what we really need is evolution of a species as a whole.
I normally use somewhere between 1000 and 2000 for pretty much all of the values. Even this can appear painfully slow though.
I actually just had the weirdest thing happen while continuing with my quest to get "firstbot" (a bot made by "Bots-are-us" that travels excusively in straight lines) to develop rotation.
What actually happened was that one or more of them figured out how to make and fire viruses, then promptly forgot how to move and died out so I never actually saw their DNA. :(
When I checked back in I found that some of my veggies (not mutating) were constantly shooting. Further investigation showed that the primary movement and shooting gene from Firstbot had been transferred to them.
Now I have a few that have somehow become 2-bot MBs and are even sharing energy. I can't figure out how though :unsure:
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You want an upper bound of, on average, one mutation that actually does anything once per generation. More than that and you introduce some seriously weird effects (which theoretical biology has been aware of for quite some time).
The lower the mutation rates, the stronger natural selection forces will be to weed out mutations, but the longer you have to run the sim to see anything.
I usually aim for one mutation per 2 or 3 generations if my bot has a shorter genome (say, under 100 bp).
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How odd ... viruses
No wonder I wasn't getting much. My mutation rates were all set to 5000. I seem to have a comfortable mutation rate at the moment, between 1000-3000 with an 8x multiplier. Slightly high but the bot I am using is rather cannibotistic and bad mutations get eaten :evil:
Some bots somehow found a way of unfixing vegs (which still mystifies me :huh: ). Now all the vegs are unfixed.
Here's what I started with:
cond
*.eye5 0 !=
start
-1 .shoot store
stop
cond
*.eye5 0 !=
start
20 .up store
*.eye6 *.eye4 sub .aimdx store
stop
cond
*.eye5 0 =
start
314 rnd .aimdx store
stop
cond
*.nrg 10000 >
start
10 .repro store
stop
cond
*.numties 0 >
start
32000 .tielen1 store
stop
end
Here's a random bot now after around 250,000cy:
cond
*.eye5 0 !=
start
-1 .shoot store
stop
'''''''''Gene 2: Last 'stop' at position 9'''''''''
cond
start
add -668 20 1 *146 rnd store
*.refshoot *.veldn *.eye4 sub 5 786 store
stop
'''''''''Gene 3: Last 'stop' at position 26'''''''''
cond
*.eye5 0 !=
start
20 .up store
*.eye6 *.eye4 sub .aimdx store
store
rnd
stop
'''''''''Gene 4: Last 'stop' at position 42'''''''''
cond
*.eye5 0 =
start
314 rnd .aimdx store
add
stop
'''''''''Gene 5: Last 'stop' at position 53'''''''''
cond
*.nrg 10000 >
start
10 .repro store
stop
'''''''''Gene 6: Last 'stop' at position 62'''''''''
cond
*.numties 0 >
start
32000 .tielen1 store
stop
'''''''''Gene 7: Last 'stop' at position 71'''''''''
end
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Firstbot, hmm, I was playing with that idea, the absolute minimal starting bot.
cond
start
-1 .shoot store
20 .up store
stop
cond
*.nrg 4000 >
start
40 .repro store
stop
-
This is th egenome that I am using right now.
'Perfect Bot for evolution
'FirstBot is the official name
'/*****proper reproduction 1
cond
*.nrg
20000
>
start
50
.repro
store
'if time to reproduce store it
1
972
store
stop
cond
'/after robot reproduces it reproduces more until energy less then 3000
*972
1
=
start
50
.repro
store
stop
cond
*.nrg
3000
<
start
0
972
store
stop
'\*****proper reproduction 1
cond
start
-1
.shoot
store
10
.up
store
stop
'poop gene added because these stupid idiots
'keep getting altzheimers and getting fixed in place
cond
*.waste 10 >
start
-4 .shoot store
10 .shootval store
0 .fixpos store
stop
end
I had to add the waste disposal and unfixing gene to the end because otherwise they always ended up fixed to the spot after a while.
I am also running with scripts enabled and set to detect, pause and highlight any bot that evolves any kind of turning command.
So far, one bot developed a gene that stored 0 into setaim when its energy got lower than 3000. The trait didn't last long though as the thing constantly reproduced because it lost one of the repro conditions in the process. For a while though, there was a huge mass of similar bots all heading to the right and pumping out babies. It was quite funny.
Another bot replaced .up with .aimdx and just sat spinning and shooting for a while. There were briefly about 10 of these but again the trait didn't last.
The sim just paused again. better go and look at what's happened.
Another one just did the same thing. I have a group of rotating gun turrets for the moment.
-
I need to add a notification sound when the sim pauses. That would be cool. B)
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I need to add a notification sound when the sim pauses. That would be cool. B)
yes. nice you have scripts to pause when something happens.
that's the big problem for me ... finding mutated bots with useful dna
changes or interesting behaviour that I might be able to save or enhance
with a minor tweak before they are superceded by what may be a more
'successful' bot, [whatever one determines that to be].
btw ... for Perfect Bot ... are you using 2.37.6 or 2.4?
same question to Elite for his Evo bots ...
using his StoreBreedDie bots in 2.37.6 vs 2.4 gives results
that are completely different.
so I want to be sure I use your bots in the same sim you do ...
and with similar settings or it's a completely different ball game.
thanks for all the bot codes ...
all good stuff to check out.
-
I always use 2.37.6 as it is more stable than 2.4.
-
here is one that mutated a virus gene. Doesn't seem to be firing it though. Possibly because it is trying to shoot gene 50. <_<
-
Aaaaaaaaaagh ... who's been tampering with the alga ...
Somehow, the bots have been:
1) Unfixing the alga
2) Giving the alga shooting genes
Vegetables aren't meant to fight back ... :blink:
Somehow, a few vegs ended up with this in their gene code ...
cond
*.eye5 0 !=
start
-1 .shoot store
stopAnd more alga in other parts of the field are doing it too :blink:
There's something really weird going on ...
-
At nearly 5 hours exactly all the bots died :( due to harrassment by the mysterious evil vegs :blink:
Still, a rather interesting introduction to the weird world of evosims :)
Here's a virus I hope will help gene transfer between species:-
cond
*.nrg 1000 >
start
*.genes rnd .mkvirus *.vtimer -1 mult 1 add mult store
100 .vshoot *.vtimer 1 sub abs 1 sub -1 mult mult store
*.mkvirus 1 add .delgene *.mkvirus *.thisgene sub dup mult sgn mult store
stop
Which I will be running with a virus-immune veg:-
cond
start
50 .repro *.nrg 6000 sub sgn mult store
15 .aimdx *.nrg 6000 sub sgn mult store
.delgene inc
.delgene inc
stop
end
-
At nearly 5 hours exactly all the bots died sad.gif due to harrassment by the mysterious evil vegs blink.gif
creature from the Black Lagoon ... or the Blob!!! ;)
Poison Ivy?
hey, evolution is evolution. congrats. ;)
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I've been having some oddball effects myself. The bots appear to be benneficialy losing their deletion gene, then gaining too many genes and dying out. Maybe setting the deletion gene level higher will help out some more. :unsure:
Are your veggies able to mutate? I've had alga occasionally use:
(0) 314 rnd store
and manage to become mobile. Any time the sim repops them, it'll restore them to their initial dna; so maybe you can use that to check wether its the plants dna or the bots doing it.
-
My veggies are non-mutating and the shooting gene that a bunch of them started using (on two seperate occasions now) was lifted straight out of "Firstbot".
-
Same here, definately a virus. The veggies were mutation-disabled.
The 'veg unfixing' thing is happening to me quite frequently now. I have to use a veg that refixes automatically.
:wacko:
BTW: PY, that mutant virusbot isn't trying to vshoot gene 50; it's trying to vshoot a nonexistent virus with a range of 50. You need to .mkvirus first to fire a virus. I've got no idea how those genes are getting into the vegs. Altzheimering their shoot genes into .mkvirus maybe?
-
You are right. I dunno what the heck is going on.
I have a really strange scenario right now.
When I left the sim about an hour ago, all the bots were travelling at a pretty much uniform speed in all the same directions (plus the 180 degrees opposite direction of course)
Now they are suddenly zipping around all over the place at a bunch of different speeds. They all still go straight though.
I have one small family group who are shooting sideways at various different angles instead of straight ahead. I can't figure out quite how though.
-
Evolution sims are so interesting.
Running one with this bot:
cond
*.robage 0 =
start
stop
cond
start
-1 .shoot store
stop
cond
start
20 .up store
stop
cond
*.refeye *.myeye !=
start
*.eye9 *.eye1 sub .aimdx store
stop
cond
*.nrg 3000 >
start
50 .repro store
stop
cond
start
stop
cond
start
stop
cond
start
stop
endLots of space for mutation here :D
*Runs sim*
Yey, it works!
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There's a problem with viruses in 2.37.6 that I think explains what's happening.
See, mkvirus starts a timer if a valid gene number is used.
When that timer runs out, the virus at .mkvirus is copied and shot out. If a gene is inserted in the mean time, where the mkvirus sysvar used to point to is now a different gene.
Meaning that the wrong gene can end up being copied.
-
I just had one start to swim backwards :D
Mutated .up to .dn B)
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Check out this bot:
'Animal Minimalis mod
def stress 50
cond
*.eye5 0 >
*.refeye *.myeye !=
start
*.refveldx .dx store
*.refvelup 30 add .up store
stop
cond
*.eye5 50 >
*.refeye *.myeye !=
start
-1 .shoot store
*.refveldx .dx store
*.refvelup .up store
stop
cond
*.eye5 0 =
*.refeye *.myeye = or
start
314 rnd .aimdx store
stop
cond
*.nrg 4000 >
*.stress 1 <
start
33 .repro store
stop
cond
*.nrg 4000 >
*.stress 0 >
start
33 .mrepro store
stop
cond
*.pain 50 >
start
.stress inc
stop
cond
*.pleas 50 >
start
.stress dec
stop
end
When stressed, it hyper-mutates it's offspring. Haven't tested it yet, just thought it was an interesting idea.
Heh, backwards :lol: there's always at least one bot doing something stupid :D
I had one that used the reverse of animal minimalis' turning system - it span if it saw something and kept spinning it could see nothing in particular <_<
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Here's a good evo tip -
Double up key genes. Double up your repro genes so that big berthas cannot get rid of them so easily, and you can double restrictive genes so they can't be broken as easily.
I also sometimes add 'spare genes' and junk DNA to my evobots to give evolution more to play with.
-
Talk about junk DNA ...
cond
*345 *192 ~=
-9 *.velscalar >
-9 *.velscalar =
start
stop
cond
-9 *.velscalar >
-9 *.velscalar >=
-9 *.velscalar >=
*.robage 0 <
start
*889
stop
cond
-9 *.nrg >
-9 *.velscalar >
-9 *.velscalar >
-10 *.aimshoot >
-9 *.velscalar >=
start
*.refypos -1463
stop
cond
*.tielen2 -447 >
start
*421 rnd div *.backshot -1169 dec
div inc
-288 dec
div inc
dec
div inc
*757 -1169 *420 div
stop
cond
*.strbody 0 =
start
*.in2 -1169 div rnd
stop
cond
*.strbody 0 =
start
*.in2 -1169 div rnd
stop
cond
-91 -144 >=
start
*334 -1 .shoot store
inc
inc
div *306 inc
add *515 dec
163 202 *416 mult
stop
cond
start
21 div 21 div div store
*430 1 rnd -283 20 0 rnd 19 1 rnd dec
1 rnd store
*579
stop
cond
start
21 store
dec
-375 *679 452 457 *.shsx *853 store
-977 div dec
store
-977 dec
inc
inc
dec
add div 977 *846
stop
cond
*.refdx 730 !=
*.body 745 %=
*.memval *.fixed !=
*.memval *.fixed !=
start
add -392 add mult 447 add mult div *.reffixed mult *345 add 265 *.trefaimsx store
rnd div 281 *.trefaimsx rnd *237 *.reftie -614 dec
rnd *.hitdn dec
dec
rnd 448 rnd inc
448 rnd sub inc
-201 inc
-201 rnd sub mult *54 *.velscalar *.trefxpos 173 *.myvenom store
rnd 1488 *.eye9 store
*.ypos -986 rnd store
*.ypos rnd 662 rnd *.eye1 add inc
dec
dec
add *.eye1 201 rnd add 774 dec
dec
mult inc
*679 rnd inc
*679 rnd *519 *.shootval *.sun *.tielen3 inc
store
store
div store
div mult *.hitdx *129 6 -32 mult inc
-24
stop
cond
*.shootval 730 !=
*.refdx 730 !=
*.body 745 %=
*.memval *.fixed !=
*.memval *.fixed !=
start
add add mult 447 add mult div *.reffixed *345 add 265 *.trefaimsx store
rnd div 265 *.trefaimsx rnd *237 *.reftie dec
rnd *.hitdn dec
rnd 448 rnd inc
448 rnd sub inc
-201 inc
-201 rnd sub mult *54 *.velscalar *.trefxpos 173 *.myvenom store
add 1488 *.eye9 inc
dec
*.ypos rnd sub store
*.ypos rnd rnd *.eye1 add inc
dec
add *.eye1 201 add 774 1032 -971 dec
dec
*679 rnd inc
*679 rnd *.shootval *.sun *.tielen3 inc
store
store
sub div store
*892 *129 6 -32 inc
-24
stop
cond
*.refeye *.hitup !=
start
-823 inc
inc
dec
inc
inc
dec
inc
*.refdn dec
dec
*163 add *.trefvelmyup dec
*255 *.pleas mult -57 sub -56 rnd sub -56 rnd sub *546 -56 rnd sub 237 -56 *435 rnd sub *948 dec
*948 dec
mult div inc
*258 add 748 -42 inc
div 174 -1111 inc
*.vtimer 418 div *.eye1 *.numties sub *.eye1 *.numties sub *.eye1 *.numties sub -759 *.vtimer *.eye1 dec
div 402 div *.trefvelyoursx *.eye9 *.pwaste sub *.eye1 sub .aimdx store
79 45 -666 283 *.trefage store
-24 dec
stop
cond
*977 *.myvenom >
*.trefshoot *.myvenom >
*.fixlen *.hitup >
start
994 store
rnd inc
*.eye9 96 add *.venom sub *270 div *270 store
div *270 div *.velscalar *.refpoison *.velscalar *.velscalar div *.tieang sub *270 add mult store
mult -178 *.memval -237 *.deltie sub *188 *948 rnd *.vtimer *172 mult -1388 *.setboy 34 -613 *892 -487 *994 sub *.mydn *892 sub inc
sub *.eye1 *892 dec
*.eye1 store
*892 sub add store
div *.shdx 435 div *892 store
dec
add *.trefvelyoursx *.eye9 *.eye1 rnd *.eye9 *.eye1 rnd *.eye9 *.eye1 rnd sub inc
dec
*.eye9 *.eye1 -781 *.hitdn *691 div -781 *.hitdn div -1173 -28 sub *143 -601 -27 sub store
*192 5 div div add 5 div inc
div div inc
div -850 dec
-850 dec
*561 rnd -24 -434 dec
stop
cond
*.trefypos *.trefdx !%=
*.hit *.hitdx =
*.nrg 7868 >
*.nrg 8017 !%=
start
dec
51 .repro store
1 div *75 dec
sub 109 inc
rnd dec
mult store
rnd 1400 -232 -375 *601 inc
stop
cond
*.eye5 *493 !%=
start
*29 129 *.trefxpos -1660 *71
stop
cond
start
sub mult 129 dec
*.in1 *.poisoned mult
stop
cond
*986 *.dn <
start
-330 rnd div -330 rnd div dec
dec
*.daytime inc
dec
*.daytime inc
-609 inc
*.refshoot
stop
cond
start
-971 dec
rnd -971 dec
rnd 860 add inc
174 sub sub 174 sub inc
-784 dec
rnd *.trefdx sub sub 919 div rnd dec
div rnd mult *681 325
stop
cond
start
-971 dec
rnd *222 -971 dec
rnd *59 870 sub inc
-929 add div 507 sub rnd *.trefshell inc
-459 sub sub *.tielen3 901 div sub add *.trefnrg 919 div sub rnd mult *681 *893 322
stop
cond
start
*778 mult mult *778 *.vshoot mult mult *38 div *874 dec
*38 div sub div *38 div *362 254 add dec
div store
mult sub rnd inc
-448 *.vtimer dec
dec
*.body -1143 101 358 205 dec
div div -262 sub -184 *734 rnd dec
mult *.veldn -890 *38 205 div
stop
cond
store
*.shsx *.refypos sub *.refshoot *38 sub dec
*38 sub dec
inc
*433 *.myties inc
*433 *38 inc
*433 *38 inc
*433 *.hitdn mult .hitup store
*.tielen4 *38 210 rnd
stop
end
-
If you really want to be restrictive:
'Last Gene
cond
*.dnalen *.dnalenInitial !=
start
.delgene inc
stop
You can also use *.thisgene to a good effect:
'Gene1
cond
*.refeye *.myeye !=
*.eye5 35 >
start
*.thisgene sub .shoot store
stop
Any mutants have to first figure a way around these before anything else can appear.