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Messages - Numsgil

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Newbie / Re: coexistence
« on: September 10, 2023, 03:35:47 PM »
I'm glad you're still running simulations.  I find your results really interesting.

For the mobile bots, their genome is mostly trashed at this point, except they've conserved the ability to eat ('-6 .shoot store') and reproduce ('344 .repro store'), which makes sense since otherwise you aren't going to produce any children.

Likewise the plants genome is mostly junk except for '5 .mkchlr floorstore', which allows it to make chloroplasts.

Newbie / Re: Windows 10 version?
« on: February 28, 2023, 04:43:05 AM »
Looks like a file that they used to distribute with windows isn't being distributed anymore.

I've attached my file from my Windows 7 machine.  I have no idea if this will work, but see if you can put it in the Darwinbots2 install directory and if that helps.

Newbie / Re: coexistence
« on: January 08, 2023, 09:42:15 PM »
Glad to see you're still running simulations!  Looks like you're getting some reasonable simulation speed, at least.  Keep us posted.

Newbie / Re: coexistence
« on: August 27, 2022, 09:42:10 PM »
It's still quite a feat!  I don't think anyone's managed a simulation that long, at least not to my knowledge.  Best of luck on your next simulation.

Newbie / Re: coexistence
« on: May 14, 2022, 01:26:41 PM »
It's looking really good.  This is probably the longest anyone has run a simulation.  I don't know the record or anything but I don't remember anyone running ~100M cycles.

Newbie / Re: coexistence
« on: April 18, 2022, 12:52:46 AM »
My guess is some counter is overflowing its 16 or 32 bit bounds?  You could try starting a new simulation with the same bots, although it's sad to lose some historical data, I know.

Newbie / Re: coexistence
« on: April 10, 2022, 08:11:40 PM »
edit: i need some help, the graphs are broken, it says i have the population and average mutations graph running but when i click on them nothing happens, i can't even see them, do you know how to fix this? the other graphs are fine btw

I don't know off hand what might have happened.  Have you tried saving and restarting the program?  It might be in a funky state.

Newbie / Re: coexistence
« on: April 08, 2022, 03:21:17 AM »
I think those are viruses.  Which is interesting in its own way, but yeah maybe not what you were going for.

Newbie / Re: coexistence
« on: April 02, 2022, 11:52:15 PM »
it seems to be going well though the stable population is trending down, it used to be in the 200s and now it's in the 150s.

I don't think this is necessarily a bad thing; the most efficient strain isn't necessarily the most competitive strain.

Newbie / Re: coexistence
« on: March 17, 2022, 01:48:09 AM »
yeah those are some interesting mutations.  Keep at it, see if you can get it to do more interesting things.

Newbie / Re: coexistence
« on: March 11, 2022, 02:42:10 AM »
Yeah that might work.  Only one way to find out :)

Newbie / Re: coexistence
« on: March 03, 2022, 12:10:58 AM »
This gets in to areas of actual biology research so smart people have had different opinions on the matter over the centuries, but personally I ascribe to a kind of haystack model.  That's often discussed in terms of the problem of altruism but I think it works for the evolution of complex behavior generally.

The idea goes that an isolated population tends to become genetically homogenous over time.  Sometimes beneficial mutations develop, sometimes harmful ones, sometimes lots of neutral mutations, but generally things have a tendency to spread out and either become universal or extinct.  It's possible for such a population to even drive itself to extinction by accidentally getting into evolutionary dead ends.

Now imagine having dozens or hundreds of such populations, all from a common ancestor, and having them isolated long enough that they're all a bit different.  Now suddenly mix them together into a single population.  Each line has to fight for survival and a line with a beneficial mutation has an edge.  Wait for the larger population to become homegenous again, then split the population back up into the original enclaves.  Now repeat this on different time and size scales with different groups in a chaotic soup of isolating and recombining populations.  You end up with a red queen's race of competing genetic lines fighting against each other.  The lines that do this well survive, the ones that don't, don't.  In sexual and horizontal gene transfer organisms the different lines can even create hybrids during the mixing process so you can have mutations that are neutral or even slighytly negative independently find each other and produce a beneficial result.

That's the theory.  If you wanted to mimic something like this in Darwinbots you would run a simulation for a while until there are some number of mutations in the population and things seem to have stagnated.  Then find an examplar bot and create a new simulation with clones of that bot and the original line.  Run that for a while, find an examplar bot, then create a new simulation with the original, the 1st round examplar and this new examplar.  Repeat ad nauseum, choosing which examplars go together in a sim arbitrarily/randomly.  You end up with strong selective pressure without the possibility of a mutation meltdown.  This is an awful lot like what DeepMind did for their Starcraft2 research: they built a ladder and pitted new versions of the AI against old version of the AI periodically to protect against "catastrophic forgetting".  The ones that did well had to do well against not just their peers but previous iterations of themselves.  The difference in biology is that there's no external fitness function outside of keeping your line represented in the future somehow.

It's worth noting as a human you can put your thumb on the scale and select for things you find interesting, but you don't have to and it'd be perfectly fine to choose your examplars randomly.

Also worth noting, in Darwinbots it's hard for DNA to get longer.  There's some mutations set up for it but practically speaking it doesn't happen very often.  You can help things along a bit if you add a bunch of 0s to your bots' DNA to give it a bit more room to develop mutations in.

Newbie / Re: coexistence
« on: February 26, 2022, 06:51:31 PM »
long term stability is interesting in its own right, but as long as there's some mutations I imagine something will change sooner or later.

Newbie / Re: coexistence
« on: January 26, 2022, 01:36:12 AM »
Interestingly the first DNA you posted had some junk at the end the second one doesn't.  Otherwise they are remarkably similar.  I'm guessing the mutation rate is pretty low?

Newbie / Re: coexistence
« on: January 12, 2022, 01:30:32 PM »
I had a sim once where the plants learned to "vibrate" by storing small random values in .dx and .sx which made them hard enough to eat that they were able to coexist with the animals for the same reason: the feeding animals ended up being quite sloppy because they had a hard time aiming their shots to always hit.  I think it's a viable strategy to get a coexistance going: you need the animals to struggle to feed enough that the plants have an opportunity to survive.  But it can also tip too far in the plants' favor and it can be so hard to feed that the animals die off.

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