Darwinbots Forum
Bots and Simulations => Simulation Emporium => Topic started by: shvarz on March 22, 2006, 06:52:30 PM
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I've been trying to get an "ecosystem" sim working for quite some time. It was not very succesful. So, now after a pretty long break I decided to come back to that. Here's my latest experiment:
there are three species:
1. veggies (my own alga shellular)
2. herbivores (modification of Carnatus Orbis) - tie-feed on veggies
3. carnvores (modification of Hunter 2.3) - shot-feeds on herbivores
Now, the energy balance is not there yet, becasue I could not get it to work with bots I had. I decided to evolve them a bit first. So here we have tons of veggies with a lot of energy. But the system has been running solid for the last 200 000 cycles, with none of the bots dying out.
I disabled mutations on veggies and on carnivores, but herbivores have been evolving and acquired about 25-30 mutations. They have not evolved any cannibalistic features and are still avoiding carnivores.
Feel free to try it. Here is the link to the saved sim. (http://darwinbots.com/shvarz/03-22.rar)
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there are three species:
1. veggies (my own alga shellular)
2. herbivores (modification of Carnatus Orbis) - tie-feed on veggies
3. carnvores (modification of Hunter 2.3) - shot-feeds on herbivores
how/where do I get these bots?
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They are all in the sim, so you can grab the DNA from there if you are really interested. Or I could post them, but they are not really new bots - just something I rigged for the sim to work.
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well it won't load in 2.4.A ... load sim error ... invalid property value
it did load in 2.37.6 ...
but then completely locked up on me when I tried to save the bot's dna.
took ctrl/alt/delete to get out of it.
so I didn't get the dna
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Oops, sorry I forgot to mention that it is 2.37.6 sim!
Well, the DNA on it's own won't do you much good, because you'll need the settings and such. I'd suggest trying to load it again,open properties for a bot and copy-paste the DNA out, it should work.
I just did that and dropped all the DNA in a single file (see attached). Remove the rem in extension to make it true txt file.
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Oops, sorry I forgot to mention that it is 2.37.6 sim!
Well, the DNA on it's own won't do you much good, because you'll need the settings and such. I'd suggest trying to load it again,open properties for a bot and copy-paste the DNA out, it should work.
I just did that and dropped all the DNA in a single file (see attached). Remove the rem in extension to make it true txt file.
copy/paste doesn't work for me ...
at least not from the robot info window.
I have to 'save robot dna' .. which freezes me up for some reason.
I don't know what you mean by 'robot properties'.
but I got your bots download, so should be able to save those bots ...
load your sim, stop. load in the bots ... maintaining the settings ...
and do a start new, yes?
I also need to decrease the field size to something managable ...
or I crawl along at something way under 0.5 cycles/sec ...
and it freezes up as well.
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Well, see that's going to be a problem (decreasing the size of the sim) because size of the sim is part of environment, so if you change it then there is no guarrntee that these bots would still co-exist for a long time.
By robot properties I mean double-clicking on a bot during the sim, then clicking on "DNA" button in the appearing window - it shows you the DNA which you can copy-paste. How can it not work?
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I agree with Griz. I can only select the text there with the mouse. Not do anything with it. Maybe copy that text but I can't paste anything there.
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I have them now from your upload and have separated
them into veg, herb and carnivore.
[edit: see next message Testlund ... the dna can be copied]
and yes, the field size will alter things ...
I ended up being able to get size 2 to work ...
even with veggies limited to cycling around 280 or so.
it isn't as easy to do ... as there is less environment for variations ...
but it does work.
as is, I get a cycling of populations, sometimes the herbivores getting
eliminated, but not always.
I'm playing with tweaking/finetuning settings as I go.
btw ....
your bots do work in 2.4.A as well ...
it just wouldn't load in the sim you uploaded.
but now that I have the bot's separated and the setting saved ...
it works there as well.
and it's interesting in the new physics, nrg/body size changing.
I'll run a long one in it as see what happens.
I've been running them without mutations ...
so I have a better chance of tweaking the settings for the basic bots
to work on optimizing the sim/environment ...
to come up with something that is going to be stable.
seems pretty good, so now will add a little mutation and see what
evolves. ;)
I like the 'look' of it in 2.4.A anyway ...
and I should be able to run it in non-toridal mode ...
as in 2.37.6 ... fixed veggies still tend to 'clump up'.
btw ... running with veggies 'blocked' tends to creat 'oasis's' ?
where the herbivores have more of a variety of habitat and can
more easily escape the carnivores. unfixed ... the herbs tend
to not have places to 'hide' and get taken out much more quickly.
all experimental.
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I agree with Griz. I can only select the text there with the mouse. Not do anything with it. Maybe copy that text but I can't paste anything there.
I got it fingered out Testlund ...
after highlighting, even tho the 'right click' mouse wont do it ...
Ctrl C will copy. then Ctrl V will paste it in somewhere else.
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What shvarz us saying is select the text with the mouse, copy it, open up notepad, and paste it into notepad.
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What shvarz us saying is select the text with the mouse, copy it, open up notepad, and paste it into notepad.
we know Nums ...
the mouse will NOT copy it. not mine anyway.
gots to use Ctrl C to copy
Ctrl V to paste.
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Sorry, I was replying to Testlund above who's post seemed to indicate he was trying to paste something into the DNA window.
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I had no idea you could use the mouse to copy :) Always do the Ctrl-C/Ctrl-V.
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Sorry, I was replying to Testlund above who's post seemed to indicate he was trying to paste something into the DNA window.
ah, I see.
well, he may have been asking about that as well ...
but the original question was about trying to get the DNA copied.
all this stuff that is obvious to you guys who have been at it awhile
is not to us new folks, myself included.
it's easy when you know how ...
and very difficult, if not impossible, when you don't. ;)
I do appreciate when people answer my questions as precisely
as possible ...
that's why I''m asking ....
'cause I don't know.
asking questions should be encouraged ...
as it may help not only the questioner, but anyone else who
happens to be reading as well.
imo. ime.
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Ok, I guess I missunderstood. I just copied the text from your uploaded file and created 3 textfiles wich I then loaded from the species tab. As simple as that.
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OK, I'm glad it worked.
BTW, I also don't use mouse to select anything - just click somewhere in the text and press Ctrl-A ;)
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Yeah-yeah, it's faster! Blah-blah! :D
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That was quick, in 700 000 cycles Carnatus Orbis mutated and got so good at eating Alga shellular that it wiped out all veggies and the whole sim died. It also adapted in a way that Hunter cannot thrive on it anymore. I see Hunters attacking Carnatuses and eating them, but after a while all of them are dead. Can't figure out what happens to them...
I caught this whole thing on population graph. See attached pic.
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The predator troughs are pretty low it looks like. The Herbivore probably didn't have to get a whole lot better. Just make the Predator's natural cycle dip a little bit more and they go extinct.
Edit: I've moved the posts like you asked, but your attached pic isn't showing up for me for some reason anymore.
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OK, thanks.
I'm reposting the pic here.
As far as your comment - the troughs are not that shallow - look at the numbers, the middle line is at 440 bots. Anyway, I tried to re-introduce the Hunters back by inserting a whole bunch of them right next to "nests" of the Carnatuses - and they eat a bit, but die out. I'm pretty sure Carnatuses got resistant to Hunters somehow.
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By the way, since we are talking about predator cycles - don't you find it curious that the predator cycles seemingly without any dependance on the herbivore population? And it was not just a fluke - I saw these cycles consistently. Can't figure out why that happens...
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Hmm, that is interesting. I don't know the bots you're using well enough to voice an opinion.
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OK, thanks.
I'm reposting the pic here.
As far as your comment - the troughs are not that shallow - look at the numbers, the middle line is at 440 bots. Anyway, I tried to re-introduce the Hunters back by inserting a whole bunch of them right next to "nests" of the Carnatuses - and they eat a bit, but die out. I'm pretty sure Carnatuses got resistant to Hunters somehow.
My graphs never looks like this. I guess you know better how to set up your simulation because you know better what everything in the GUI means and what the bots needs to survive. Tried your bots yestereve but they all keep dying out. Tried different field sizes and different amount of bots. I'm going to play around with it today and see if I can get a working sim. I think this ecosystem idea is very interesting. Whould like to get it to work.
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I finally managed to evolve a bot, or maybe I was just lucky with the simulation this time, that stayed alive for several hours. Unfortunately they all got in a clump and now nothing happens. It's like they get frozen in time where no one dies or multiplies. I think it happens when you have Planet eaters checked, even if it's just a value of 1. Boo! :ph43r:
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OK, I double-checked. Carnatus evolved to mimick Hunter's "own species" recognition. I don't have enough expertise to go and dig through the code to find out how they did it, but they certainly did - Hunters don't shoot at them. It's a bit strange, because in the original sim I saw Hunters shooting at least at some of Carnatuses, but now I made a new bot from that evolved species and started new sim and Hunters don't hunt anymore... Maybe in the original sim both resistant and sensetive species were co-exisiting, because the presence of resistant species crippled Hunters enough for sensetive species to survive at low numbers.
I doubt anyone would care enough to try and figure it out, but here's the DNA of the evolved Carnatus. cond *.nrg 6000 > *.eye5 0 != start add 35 .repro store *252 2 rnd 50 store 150 458 *399 store stop cond *.robage 0 = start 330 inc *.myeye .refeye store 455 .vloc store stop cond *.robage 1 = start 467 inc 628 .aimdx store stop cond *.eye5 60 < *.vel 20 < start add 576 5 .up store stop cond *.eye5 0 > *.eye5 50 < *.numties 0 = start *.maxvel *.vel sub .up store stop cond *.eye3 *22 !%= -86 *969 >= *.eye1 *.eye9 != start mult store *.eye9 *.eye1 873 sub 4 mult stop cond *.eye5 30 < *.eye2 *.eye8 != *.eye2 *.eye8 != start mult mult mult mult *.eye8 *.eye2 sub 3 *923 inc stop cond *.eye5 30 < *.eye2 *.eye8 != *.eye2 *.eye8 != start mult mult mult mult *.eye8 *.eye2 sub 3 *923 inc stop cond *.eye5 40 < *.eye3 *.eye7 != *.eye3 *.eye7 != start mult *.eye7 *.eye3 sub 2 mult inc stop cond *.eye4 *.tielen2 != start mult *.eye6 *.eye4 sub stop cond *.refeye 0 > *.eye5 20 > *.robage 0 != start 900 *226 mult 288 stop cond start .aimdx store stop cond *.eye3 0 != *.tiepres 0 != *.tiepres 0 != start 70 inc dec 71 inc stop cond *.tiepres 0 != *.tiepres 0 != *.tiepres 0 != start *880 70 inc *594 71 inc stop cond *70 1 = start 145 -3 .tieloc store -3 .tieloc store 25 -23 .tieval store *.sun .tienum store stop cond *70 1 = start 145 -3 .tieloc store 25 .tieval store *.tiepres -889 .refshoot store 1697 stop cond *70 1 > start -1 .tieloc store *896 -3000 .tieval store *.tiepres .tienum store stop cond *.refeye 0 = *.eye4 *.eye6 = *.eye5 40 > *.numties 0 = start 500 rnd .tie store -23 stop cond *70 0 > *.numties 0 = start 0 70 store stop cond *.nrg 1000 > start 100 rnd 100 rnd .strbody store stop cond *.waste 100 > start div 374 *.waste 257 .shootval store -4 .shoot store add 1 mult .backshot store stop end
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I thought I'd post the "mutations details" from this bot, but it turns out saved sims don't carry this info. Nums, take note of this for the new version.
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You were using 2.37 right?
Unless I'm mistaken, I think I fixed this for 2.4. Somone would need to check.
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I'm not quite sure what th eproblem is with saving the robot's DNA.
It works fine on my system.
You right click the robot then choose "Save Robot's DNA" from the list. It creates the DNA file from there.
What exactly are you guys trying to do?
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I'm not quite sure what th eproblem is with saving the robot's DNA.
It works fine on my system.
You right click the robot then choose "Save Robot's DNA" from the list. It creates the DNA file from there.
What exactly are you guys trying to do?
that would be the best way PY ...
but I couldn't do it that way as the program would freeze
on me when I did. don't know why. this was with 2.4.
so ... opening the robot info file, and looking at the dna ...
one can highlight it with the mouse, but not save it.
Testlund experienced the same thing.
shvarz apparently could do it from there ...
as his combined bots file he uploaded has all the 'gene stops' in it.
so we were trying to figure out how he did that.
eventually, I found that once hilighted, I could save it using
ctrl C and then it can be pasted into notepad.
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Just wanted to say it sure can be difficult to find out how to make the bots survive. I suspect that different bots behave diffirent in different versions (that's 3 different :P ..umm, actually now it's 4). I'm trying out this ecosystem concept. The herbivores keep dying out. I think maybe if I just running with veggies and herbivores for awhile they might evolve to be better survivors. Then I can put in the carnivors. Lot's of restart. And tonight it's partytime! :party: forgive me. Had a few ciders here. Hehe.
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Bots will behave differently in 2.4 and 2.37 and before, but that schism should be the only major one really.
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Maybe modify the bots to use in/out 1/2 instead of eyes. It's much more difficult to accurately mimic numbers, than to simply have "eyes" added to the dna.
A sort of directed evolution happens with these in evolving prey species to mimic identifiers of their attackers. Kind of annoying :) but an understandable effect of evolution.