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Topics - shvarz

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46
Suggestions / Genome structure
« on: January 02, 2007, 04:29:05 PM »
Yes, again.  I know it most likely won't go anywhere, but I'll put it out for everyone to hear anyway.  Maybe at least some ideas would find their way into the program

Right now we have fully deterministic genome structure: conditions are used to turn genes on and off.  There also was a suggestion to go for probabilistic approach, where genes are executed at random.  Both have advantages that have been discussed previously (do a search yourself).

I have a compromise suggestion, that would keep the possibility of designer-bots being tightly regulated, but at the same time allow for a genome structure that is more "evolvable".  Everyone knows that on practice it is impossible to evolve a bot with a gene that is using a condition.  Genes are either always on or always off with no middle ground.  Gene control is such a tricky thing that it gets broken down very quickly and never evolves from scratch.

So, in my opinion the structure of "condition" needs some simplification and flexibility.  Here is the idea:
We have a single value that defines the probability of the next encountered gene to be executed.  That value is never reset to zero but is modified by the DNA.  
1. Allow commands that increase or decrease the probability. (say "bump" and "drop").  As DNA is scanned each encountered command changes the probability by 10% up or down.
2. Current strong conditions, such as <, >, =, =! etc "bump" the probability if true or "drop" it if false.
3. Mild conditions such as ~= can do the same but to a lesser extent, say by 5%.

Such conditions are much more likely to appear during evolution and are easier to handle for bots.  One of the big advantages of such genome structure is a wider diversity of mutations that it can tolerate.  The fitness of the bot is not going to change drastically, but through a gradient and gradients are very good for evolution, because evolution is good at optimizing, but is bad at coming up with new structures.

47
Bugs and fixes / Error.sim
« on: December 14, 2006, 05:12:33 PM »
Let's squash those bugs!  Here is another sim that crashed on me:

http://www.darwinbots.com/shvarz/error.sim

48
Biology / Earth as a sim
« on: December 11, 2006, 02:14:42 PM »
I've seen on this board some people complaining that bots don't evolve complex genes or genes that would use conditions and then argue that this indicates that the DB program is somehow failing to simulate the reality.

While it is certainly true that DBs is not perfect, the argument above is totally out of context.  There is almost no way to compare DB to real biological evolution.  The numbers just don't match.  The time, the number of organisms, the complexity levels...

One thing that people may be missing is that the simplest organism that we can find on Earth today is still the product of evolution that's been going on for the last three billion years.  Convert that to "DB time" and you'll get ~4x10^12 cycles.  And then try to estimate the number of living organisms on Earth at any given time, considering that you may have 200 million bacteria in a single ml of liquid under good growth conditions.  And each of these bacteria has genome of 100 million bases!  The numbers are totally mind-blowing!  

Of course, the DB language is designed to have much higher-order commands than regular DNA.  A single command may do something that cells would use millions of base-pairs of DNA to code.  And that evens out the numbers a bit.  But real life is still going to be tens of orders of magnitude more complex than anything we may have in DBs.  

So, if you don't see genes with conditions in your sims, it does not mean that DB language is not working the way it is supposed to work.  It's just that you need to run your sims with million-times more bots for million-times more cycles

49
Evolution and Internet Sharing Sims / Help with code-2
« on: December 11, 2006, 11:02:28 AM »
The program sees 3 genes in the following DNA:
Code: [Select]
pow 2 *.nrg start
 start
 rnd 300 ~=
 inc
 1 *-25 angle rnd dec
 4 *-386 *296 -17 .aimleft inc
 20 -5 6 else
 -- 1 floor inc
 cond
 -6 inc
 107

of which the second gene is always "on" and the first and third are always "off".  I don't understand how that happens.  Why is the first start ignored, while the second is used?  There are no conditions for any of them anyway.

Also, I always thought that conditions, such as ~= remove the numbers compared from the stack.  But if they do, then

rnd 300 ~= inc

would not result in reproduction.  But these bots reproduce just fine.

50
Bugs and fixes / Overflow crash
« on: December 08, 2006, 02:52:05 PM »
I'm quite impressed on how stable the latest version is.  I've been running it for millions of cycles without crashes.  Just got my first random crash with "overflow".  I tried to attach the sim to this post, but it does not work - I get timeout errors.  So I put them on the server.  I had an autosave and saved every hour - the previous two saves are also messed up and give me overflow within 5-10 minutes after loading.

The links are:

http://www.darwinbots.com/shvarz/error.sim
http://www.darwinbots.com/shvarz/zerobot3.sim
http://www.darwinbots.com/shvarz/zerobot4.sim

Hope you can figure out what went wrong.

51
Evolution and Internet Sharing Sims / Interesting sim
« on: December 06, 2006, 06:22:14 PM »
Look in the attached sim.  There are two kinds of bots - veggies and tie-feeding predators.  I see this strange thing happening recently:  The tie-feeder hooks up and starts to feed, then suddenly the tie becomes WAY TOO LONG, then snaps and both bots are flying in opposite directions at very high speed.  It looks as if a tie-feeder is playing pool with the tie as a cue.  

Not sure if I'm right but this maybe an evolved behavior that benefits the whole population of tie-feeders.  Before the veggies used to clump a lot and tie-feeder that stumbled upon a clump was lucky, but it was really just random chance.  Now the food is distributed all over the sim more or less equally.  If this is correct, then I don't expect this to last too long.  I am sure cheaters are going to appear soon, which don't play pool, but grab all the food for themselves.

As an alternative hypothesis this may be an evolved protection by a veggy.  But I don't see anything like that in their genomes.

This kind of thing is very difficult to judge and figure out, and would require a whole study on its own.  Too bad there is no way to make the program do this work for us and just tell us the results

52
Evolution and Internet Sharing Sims / help with code
« on: December 06, 2006, 06:06:19 PM »
Found this bastard in my evosim.  How is he reproducing?

Code: [Select]
pow >
 *.nrg stop
 >
 and
 start
 65 300 *-321 store
 and
 1 4 *-25 angle rnd dec
 7 8 *-386 *296 -17 .aimleft inc
 else
 -- -7 9 2 24 inc
 56 -6 store
 store
 107

I've seen it do it, and not just once - there was a whole colony of them.

53
Bugs and fixes / Crash
« on: December 05, 2006, 11:28:36 AM »
If you are looking at "info" for a bot and the bot dies, then clicking on the "DNA" completely crashes the program.  Also, "age costs" don't work for me - I set them as:
1 per cycle
begins upon reaching 1000
Once cost begins being applied:
Increase(log-blah-blah)

This leads to "division by zero" almost immediately and then complete crash.

I am using 2.42.9

54
Off Topic / Fast Inverse Square Root
« on: December 01, 2006, 09:50:42 PM »
http://www.math.purdue.edu/~clomont/Math/P...003/InvSqrt.pdf

most of this went over my head, but for those of you who are more mathematically/programming inclined this may be interesting

55
Off Topic / Space-Time for Springers
« on: November 01, 2006, 11:24:04 AM »
As was evident from previous discussions, at least some of you share my literary tastes, and this post is for those people.  I've scanned, OCRed and posted a short story by Fritz Leiber.  I think it is the best story by the author (even though it can hardly be called sci-fi) and one of the best stories that I ever read.  Go here to read it: http://shvarz.livejournal.com/100363.html#cutid1

Post your thoughts here.

56
Bug reports / Dynamic costs bug
« on: August 24, 2006, 12:34:22 PM »
This is a small bug, but very annoying.  When I specify the target range for bot population (+/- N%), that range is treated as a "range where CostX does not change", whereas it should be treated as "range where CostX=1".  What happens is that population dips down below the range, CostX goes all the way to 0 and stays there until population overcomes the top range.  What should happen is that by the time population reaches the lower limit for the range the CostX should go up to 1.  

I hope I explained it clearly.

57
Simulation Emporium / Shapes and bots
« on: August 23, 2006, 07:01:33 PM »
Since everyone is so quiet, I fugred I'll share my first cool result from playing around with shapes in the new version.  Look at the picture.  In the top right corner you'll see a bunch of bots forming roughly a square.  These are offsprings from a bot that realized that by turning a bit every turn you avoid getting stuck in corners.  All those bots are moving in a counterclockwise circle.  Pretty cool!  

On a sad note, I keep getting overflow crashes.  Often in less than 1 hr time.  I had one long run of 7.5 hours, but on average it crashes Every couple of hours.

58
Bug reports / free energy bug
« on: August 22, 2006, 05:10:54 PM »
Not sure if it is indeed a free energy bug, but population in my sim suddenly jumped up by 1500 bots.  I figure someone might want to look at that...  As usual, the sim is rar-ed and renamed to txt.

Upd:  Hm, I killed some and the rest died on their own.  Must be just a bad mutation with uncontrolled division...

Upd: Yeah, false alarm.  The cost multiplier was down to 0 as well.  That explains it...

59
Bug reports / 2.42.7 overflow
« on: August 21, 2006, 03:00:17 PM »
Just tried the new version, it crashed with overflow after about 2 hours of running.  The error.sim is attached rar-ed, but renamed to txt.

60
Suggestions / Dynamic costs
« on: June 21, 2006, 12:07:50 AM »
Once again want to say that I like the feature a lot.  It needs just a bit more improvement though.
Some customization options I already mentioned.  Most important one is to allow either species-specific or hetero vs auto-troph-specific costs.

I also wander how the multiplier is calculated.  Seems like its change is proportional to the ratio between current population and desired one.  It would be nice to figure the rate of change of population into the equation somehow.  So that if the population grows quickly, then the costs should grow quickly and if it begins to stabilize, then the costs should stabilize or even go down a bit.

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