Darwinbots Forum

Bots and Simulations => Simulation Emporium => Topic started by: shvarz on March 22, 2006, 06:52:30 PM

Title: 3-bot sim
Post by: shvarz on March 22, 2006, 06:52:30 PM
I've been trying to get an "ecosystem" sim working for quite some time.  It was not very succesful.  So, now after a pretty long break I decided to come back to that.  Here's my latest experiment:

there are three species:
1. veggies (my own alga shellular)
2. herbivores (modification of Carnatus Orbis) - tie-feed on veggies
3. carnvores (modification of Hunter 2.3) - shot-feeds on herbivores

Now, the energy balance is not there yet, becasue I could not get it to work with bots I had.  I decided to evolve them a bit first.  So here we have tons of veggies with a lot of energy.  But the system has been running solid for the last 200 000 cycles, with none of the bots dying out.  

I disabled mutations on veggies and on carnivores, but herbivores have been evolving and acquired about 25-30 mutations.  They have not evolved any cannibalistic features and are still avoiding carnivores.

Feel free to try it.  Here is the link to the saved sim. (http://darwinbots.com/shvarz/03-22.rar)
Title: 3-bot sim
Post by: Griz on March 22, 2006, 08:19:32 PM
Quote
there are three species:
1. veggies (my own alga shellular)
2. herbivores (modification of Carnatus Orbis) - tie-feed on veggies
3. carnvores (modification of Hunter 2.3) - shot-feeds on herbivores
how/where do I get these bots?
Title: 3-bot sim
Post by: shvarz on March 22, 2006, 10:00:56 PM
They are all in the sim, so you can grab the DNA from there if you are really interested.  Or I could post them, but they are not really new bots - just something I rigged for the sim to work.
Title: 3-bot sim
Post by: Griz on March 22, 2006, 11:11:12 PM
well it won't load in 2.4.A ... load sim error ... invalid property value

it did load in 2.37.6 ...
but then completely locked up on me when I tried to save the bot's dna.
took ctrl/alt/delete to get out of it.
so I didn't get the dna
Title: 3-bot sim
Post by: shvarz on March 22, 2006, 11:46:39 PM
Oops, sorry I forgot to mention that it is 2.37.6 sim!

Well, the DNA on it's own won't do you much good, because you'll need the settings and such.  I'd suggest trying to load it again,open properties for a bot and copy-paste the DNA out, it should work.

I just did that and dropped all the DNA in a single file (see attached).  Remove the rem in extension to make it true txt file.
Title: 3-bot sim
Post by: Griz on March 23, 2006, 07:59:57 AM
Quote
Oops, sorry I forgot to mention that it is 2.37.6 sim!

Well, the DNA on it's own won't do you much good, because you'll need the settings and such.  I'd suggest trying to load it again,open properties for a bot and copy-paste the DNA out, it should work.

I just did that and dropped all the DNA in a single file (see attached).  Remove the rem in extension to make it true txt file.
copy/paste doesn't work for me ...
at least not from the robot info window.
I have to 'save robot dna' .. which freezes me up for some reason.
I don't know what you mean by 'robot properties'.
but I got your bots download, so should be able to save those bots ...
load your sim, stop. load in the bots ... maintaining the settings ...
and do a start new, yes?
I also need to decrease the field size to something managable ...
or I crawl along at something way under 0.5 cycles/sec ...
and it freezes up as well.
Title: 3-bot sim
Post by: shvarz on March 23, 2006, 10:37:46 AM
Well, see that's going to be a problem (decreasing the size of the sim) because size of the sim is part of environment, so if you change it then there is no guarrntee that these bots would still co-exist for a long time.

By robot properties I mean double-clicking on a bot during the sim, then clicking on "DNA" button in the appearing window - it shows you the DNA which you can copy-paste.  How can it not work?
Title: 3-bot sim
Post by: Testlund on March 23, 2006, 11:06:48 AM
I agree with Griz. I can only select the text there with the mouse. Not do anything with it. Maybe copy that text but I can't paste anything there.
Title: 3-bot sim
Post by: Griz on March 23, 2006, 11:26:18 AM
I have them now from your upload and have separated
them into veg, herb and carnivore.
[edit: see next message Testlund ... the dna can be copied]

and yes, the field size will alter things ...
I ended up being able to get size 2 to work ...
even with veggies limited to cycling around 280 or so.
it isn't as easy to do ... as there is less environment for variations ...
but it does work.
as is, I get a cycling of populations, sometimes the herbivores getting
eliminated, but not always.
I'm playing with tweaking/finetuning settings as I go.

btw ....
your bots do work in 2.4.A as well ...
it just wouldn't load in the sim you uploaded.
but now that I have the bot's separated and the setting saved ...
it works there as well.
and it's interesting in the new physics, nrg/body size changing.
I'll run a long one in it as see what happens.
I've been running them without mutations ...
so I have  a better chance of tweaking the settings for the basic bots
to work on optimizing the sim/environment ...
to come up with something that is going to be stable.
seems pretty good, so now will add a little mutation and see what
evolves. ;)
I like the 'look' of it in 2.4.A anyway ...
and I should be able to run it in non-toridal mode ...
as in 2.37.6 ... fixed veggies still tend to 'clump up'.

btw ... running with veggies 'blocked' tends to creat 'oasis's' ?
where the herbivores have more of a variety of habitat and can
more easily escape the carnivores.  unfixed ... the herbs tend
to not have places to 'hide' and get taken out much more quickly.

all experimental.
Title: 3-bot sim
Post by: Griz on March 23, 2006, 11:33:17 AM
Quote
I agree with Griz. I can only select the text there with the mouse. Not do anything with it. Maybe copy that text but I can't paste anything there.
I got it fingered out Testlund ...
after highlighting, even tho the 'right click' mouse wont do it ...
Ctrl C will copy.  then Ctrl V will paste it in somewhere else.
Title: 3-bot sim
Post by: Numsgil on March 23, 2006, 11:38:41 AM
What shvarz us saying is select the text with the mouse, copy it, open up notepad, and paste it into notepad.
Title: 3-bot sim
Post by: Griz on March 23, 2006, 11:42:48 AM
Quote
What shvarz us saying is select the text with the mouse, copy it, open up notepad, and paste it into notepad.
we know Nums ...
the mouse will NOT copy it. not mine anyway.
gots to use Ctrl C to copy
Ctrl V to paste.
Title: 3-bot sim
Post by: Numsgil on March 23, 2006, 11:48:51 AM
Sorry, I was replying to Testlund above who's post seemed to indicate he was trying to paste something into the DNA window.
Title: 3-bot sim
Post by: shvarz on March 23, 2006, 12:12:28 PM
I had no idea you could use the mouse to copy :)  Always do the Ctrl-C/Ctrl-V.
Title: 3-bot sim
Post by: Griz on March 23, 2006, 12:12:59 PM
Quote
Sorry, I was replying to Testlund above who's post seemed to indicate he was trying to paste something into the DNA window.
ah, I see.
well, he may have been asking about that as well ...
but the original question was about trying to get the DNA copied.
all this stuff that is obvious to you guys who have been at it awhile
is not to us new folks, myself included.
 
it's easy when you know how ...
and very difficult, if not impossible, when you don't. ;)

I do appreciate when people answer my questions as precisely
as possible ...
that's why I''m asking ....
'cause I don't know.
asking questions should be encouraged ...
as it may help not only the questioner, but anyone else who
happens to be reading as well.
imo. ime.
Title: 3-bot sim
Post by: Testlund on March 23, 2006, 12:40:48 PM
Ok, I guess I missunderstood. I just copied the text from your uploaded file and created 3 textfiles wich I then loaded from the species tab. As simple as that.
Title: 3-bot sim
Post by: shvarz on March 23, 2006, 12:43:12 PM
OK, I'm glad it worked.

BTW, I also don't use mouse to select anything - just click somewhere in the text and press Ctrl-A  ;)
Title: 3-bot sim
Post by: Testlund on March 23, 2006, 01:29:58 PM
Yeah-yeah, it's faster! Blah-blah!  :D
Title: 3-bot sim
Post by: shvarz on March 23, 2006, 06:41:40 PM
That was quick, in 700 000 cycles Carnatus Orbis mutated and got so good at eating Alga shellular that it wiped out all veggies and the whole sim died.  It also adapted in a way that Hunter cannot thrive on it anymore.  I see Hunters attacking Carnatuses and eating them, but after a while all of them are dead.  Can't figure out what happens to them...

I caught this whole thing on population graph. See attached pic.
Title: 3-bot sim
Post by: Numsgil on March 23, 2006, 06:49:00 PM
The predator troughs are pretty low it looks like.  The Herbivore probably didn't have to get a whole lot better.  Just make the Predator's natural cycle dip a little bit more and they go extinct.

Edit: I've moved the posts like you asked, but your attached pic isn't showing up for me for some reason anymore.
Title: 3-bot sim
Post by: shvarz on March 23, 2006, 07:12:39 PM
OK, thanks.

I'm reposting the pic here.

As far as your comment - the troughs are not that shallow - look at the numbers, the middle line is at 440 bots.  Anyway, I tried to re-introduce the Hunters back by inserting a whole bunch of them right next to "nests" of the Carnatuses - and they eat a bit, but die out.  I'm pretty sure Carnatuses got resistant to Hunters somehow.
Title: 3-bot sim
Post by: shvarz on March 23, 2006, 07:14:35 PM
By the way, since we are talking about predator cycles - don't you find it curious that the predator cycles seemingly without any dependance on the herbivore population?  And it was not just a fluke - I saw these cycles consistently.  Can't figure out why that happens...
Title: 3-bot sim
Post by: Numsgil on March 23, 2006, 07:16:05 PM
Hmm, that is interesting.  I don't know the bots you're using well enough to voice an opinion.
Title: 3-bot sim
Post by: Testlund on March 24, 2006, 03:14:25 AM
Quote
OK, thanks.

I'm reposting the pic here.

As far as your comment - the troughs are not that shallow - look at the numbers, the middle line is at 440 bots.  Anyway, I tried to re-introduce the Hunters back by inserting a whole bunch of them right next to "nests" of the Carnatuses - and they eat a bit, but die out.  I'm pretty sure Carnatuses got resistant to Hunters somehow.
My graphs never looks like this. I guess you know better how to set up your simulation because you know better what everything in the GUI means and what the bots needs to survive. Tried your bots yestereve but they all keep dying out. Tried different field sizes and different amount of bots. I'm going to play around with it today and see if I can get a working sim. I think this ecosystem idea is very interesting. Whould like to get it to work.
Title: 3-bot sim
Post by: Testlund on March 24, 2006, 09:00:20 AM
I finally managed to evolve a bot, or maybe I was just lucky with the simulation this time, that stayed alive for several hours. Unfortunately they all got in a clump and now nothing happens. It's like they get frozen in time where no one dies or multiplies. I think it happens when you have Planet eaters checked, even if it's just a value of 1. Boo!  :ph43r:
Title: 3-bot sim
Post by: shvarz on March 24, 2006, 11:25:03 AM
OK, I double-checked.  Carnatus evolved to mimick Hunter's "own species" recognition.    I don't have enough expertise to go and dig through the code to find out how they did it, but they certainly did - Hunters don't shoot at them.  It's a bit strange, because in the original sim I saw Hunters shooting at least at some of Carnatuses, but now I made a new bot from that evolved species and started new sim and Hunters don't hunt anymore...  Maybe in the original sim both resistant and sensetive species were co-exisiting, because the presence of resistant species crippled Hunters enough for sensetive species to survive at low numbers.

I doubt anyone would care enough to try and figure it out, but here's the DNA of the evolved Carnatus.  
Code: [Select]
cond  *.nrg  6000  >  *.eye5  0  != start  add  35  .repro  store  *252  2  rnd  50  store  150  458  *399  store stop cond  *.robage  0  = start  330  inc  *.myeye  .refeye  store  455  .vloc  store stop cond  *.robage  1  = start  467  inc  628  .aimdx  store stop cond  *.eye5  60  <  *.vel  20  < start  add  576  5  .up  store stop cond  *.eye5  0  >  *.eye5  50  <  *.numties  0  = start  *.maxvel  *.vel  sub  .up  store stop cond  *.eye3  *22  !%= -86  *969  >=  *.eye1  *.eye9  != start  mult  store  *.eye9  *.eye1  873  sub  4  mult stop cond  *.eye5  30  <  *.eye2  *.eye8  !=  *.eye2  *.eye8  != start  mult  mult  mult  mult  *.eye8  *.eye2  sub  3  *923  inc stop cond  *.eye5  30  <  *.eye2  *.eye8  !=  *.eye2  *.eye8  != start  mult  mult  mult  mult  *.eye8  *.eye2  sub  3  *923  inc stop cond  *.eye5  40  <  *.eye3  *.eye7  !=  *.eye3  *.eye7  != start  mult  *.eye7  *.eye3  sub  2  mult  inc stop cond  *.eye4  *.tielen2  != start  mult  *.eye6  *.eye4  sub stop cond  *.refeye  0  >  *.eye5  20  >  *.robage  0  != start  900  *226  mult  288 stop cond start  .aimdx  store stop cond  *.eye3  0  !=  *.tiepres  0  !=  *.tiepres  0  != start  70  inc  dec  71  inc stop cond  *.tiepres  0  !=  *.tiepres  0  !=  *.tiepres  0  != start  *880  70  inc  *594  71  inc stop cond  *70  1  = start  145 -3  .tieloc  store -3  .tieloc  store  25 -23  .tieval  store  *.sun  .tienum  store stop cond  *70  1  = start  145 -3  .tieloc  store  25  .tieval  store  *.tiepres -889  .refshoot  store  1697 stop cond  *70  1  > start -1  .tieloc  store  *896 -3000  .tieval  store  *.tiepres  .tienum  store stop cond  *.refeye  0  =  *.eye4  *.eye6  =  *.eye5  40  >  *.numties  0  = start  500  rnd  .tie  store -23 stop cond  *70  0  >  *.numties  0  = start  0  70  store stop cond  *.nrg  1000  > start  100  rnd  100  rnd  .strbody  store stop cond  *.waste  100  > start  div  374  *.waste  257  .shootval  store -4  .shoot  store  add  1  mult  .backshot  store stop end
Title: 3-bot sim
Post by: shvarz on March 24, 2006, 11:27:23 AM
I thought I'd post the "mutations details" from this bot, but it turns out saved sims don't carry this info.  Nums, take note of this for the new version.
Title: 3-bot sim
Post by: Numsgil on March 24, 2006, 01:08:41 PM
You were using 2.37 right?

Unless I'm mistaken, I think I fixed this for 2.4.  Somone would need to check.
Title: 3-bot sim
Post by: PurpleYouko on March 24, 2006, 01:18:40 PM
I'm not quite sure what th eproblem is with saving the robot's DNA.

It works fine on my system.

You right click the robot then choose "Save Robot's DNA" from the list. It creates the DNA file from there.

What exactly are you guys trying to do?
Title: 3-bot sim
Post by: Griz on March 24, 2006, 03:18:13 PM
Quote
I'm not quite sure what th eproblem is with saving the robot's DNA.

It works fine on my system.

You right click the robot then choose "Save Robot's DNA" from the list. It creates the DNA file from there.

What exactly are you guys trying to do?
that would be the best way PY ...
but I couldn't do it that way as the program would freeze
on me when I did.  don't know why.  this was with 2.4.
so ... opening the robot info file, and looking at the dna ...
one can highlight it with the mouse, but not save it.
Testlund experienced the same thing.
shvarz apparently could do it from there ...
as his combined bots file he uploaded has all the 'gene stops' in it.
so we were trying to figure out how he did that.
eventually, I found that once hilighted, I could save it using
ctrl C and then it can be pasted into notepad.
Title: 3-bot sim
Post by: Testlund on March 30, 2006, 11:47:58 AM
Just wanted to say it sure can be difficult to find out how to make the bots survive. I suspect that different bots behave diffirent in different versions (that's 3 different :P ..umm, actually now it's 4). I'm trying out this ecosystem concept. The herbivores keep dying out. I think maybe if I just running with veggies and herbivores for awhile they might evolve to be better survivors. Then I can put in the carnivors. Lot's of restart. And tonight it's partytime!  :party:  forgive me. Had a few ciders here. Hehe.
Title: 3-bot sim
Post by: Numsgil on March 30, 2006, 01:47:47 PM
Bots will behave differently in 2.4 and 2.37 and before, but that schism should be the only major one really.
Title: 3-bot sim
Post by: Endy on March 30, 2006, 04:24:26 PM
Maybe modify the bots to use in/out 1/2 instead of eyes. It's much more difficult to accurately mimic numbers, than to simply have "eyes" added to the dna.

A sort of directed evolution happens with these in evolving prey species to mimic identifiers of their attackers. Kind of annoying  :)  but an understandable effect of evolution.