Darwinbots Forum

Code center => Suggestions => Specialization, Metabolism, Digestions and Env Grid => Topic started by: Anonomous Guest Person on February 23, 2005, 10:39:19 AM

Title: Photosynthesis
Post by: Anonomous Guest Person on February 23, 2005, 10:39:19 AM
(We need longer topic descriptions.)

Ahem.

Photosynthesis would be a method of spending some energy, to get some energy back for converting things.
You could have to specifically choose what you're going to convert, or maybe not.

(By converting things, I mean converting body, waste, or anything else that can be turned into energy.)

Before I go on, I assume that converting something into energy would cost a number of energy equal to the amount you're converting. (10 body into energy would cost 10 energy.) (As another assumption, unless you're converting waste (which will generate plenty of permanent waste for you), you should gain this much in waste as well.)
But with this method, you can, provided you receive enough sunlight, expend even less energy.
To use photosynthesis, you'd basically set a variable called .photo.
This would be deleted after use. I'm not sure how this would work programming-wise, but it might require the use of a variable in which conversion costs would be added to this, and then later on in the cycle, it would be taken from .photo and then from energy.
Of course, you don't simply gain the energy you put in .photo.
Actually, the program'll read the value stored in .photo, and take this much energy from you.
Only afterwards would it limit it to (Body/50) or something like that.
After THAT, it would then be multiplied by how much light you're receiving (or something.)
Of course, rather then strength, once multiple types of energy storage are in, it would use a size-type number. (That way bigger bots can photosynthesis better, while smaller bots can fight better.)


If I'm wrong about photosynthesis, please tell me. But as far as I know, this is the basis of how it works. (And we shouldn't make DarwinBots TOO complicated. :P )
Title: Photosynthesis
Post by: Numsgil on February 23, 2005, 10:49:06 AM
Here's how I plan to incorporate photosynthesis.  Tell me if this fits all the criteria.

Each cycle you recieve 'light' into your stomach based on your surface area (size).  At the end of each cycle, all light is removed from your stomach.

Now, all food bits, from carbs to fats, are converted to usable forms by enzymes inside your stomach.  There are roughly 20 enzymes, from shell dissolvers to chloroplasts.  Chloroplasts also 'use up' waste to become more productive.

Chloroplasts convert light energy into nrg.  Once you have enough chloroplasts to convert all the light you recieve in your stomach to energy then you must increase your surface area to recieve more energy per turn from an increase in the number of chloroplasts.
Title: Photosynthesis
Post by: PurpleYouko on February 23, 2005, 10:53:07 AM
Photosynthesis is a process whereby a plant uses energy from sunlight to power a chemical reaction in which it extracts Carbon from Carbon-DiOxide in order to build cellulose for its own structure. Oxygen is produced as a by-product of this process.
It can only be used by plants.

I am in the early stages of working out a DNA based specialization system for DarwinBots in the attempt to blur the line between plants and animals.
Here is a brief outline of it. Many of these thing could change yet.
I am also contemplating a similar set of points to specialize in different environments based on temperature, waste and a few others. Plants love waste and can use it as fertilizer. Animals normally get sick around it. Some shrimps and alga can live in boiling water around hydrothermal vents where others would die. Some can handle freezing temperatures at the poles.

 :D  PY  :D
Title: Photosynthesis
Post by: Anonomous Guest Person on February 23, 2005, 11:05:25 AM
No offense, PY, but that sounds kinda boring....
It might totally ruin the whole idea of a plant league too.
And what about bots that feed on other bots?
Would they specialize in tie feeding, or shots?

Simply having a specialization system might make programming it easier, but it might make programming less of an aspect in Darwinbots.

And if you don't have tie feeding or -1 shots or -6 shots as specializations, then a bot could specialize in methods of recycling energy, thus making plants redundant.

I think I'd rather have a whole DNA system about such things.
It would complicate things, yes, but I think it'd complicate them in a good way rather then a bad way.
Title: Photosynthesis
Post by: Numsgil on February 23, 2005, 11:20:57 AM
If you examine real life, maybe an answer will show itself.

Why don't animals have chloroplasts?  Probably because chloroplasts are much less efficient than digesting fats and carbs.  Plants are huge because they need all that surface area to get enough light to make chloroplasts worth it.

This huge mass means movement is difficult, so plants attach themselves to one place, for better or worse.

So what we need to do is make photosynthesis only really worth it if you are huge.  Schvarz had an idea a while ago of having plants swell up something like 10 times the size of regular bots.
Title: Photosynthesis
Post by: PurpleYouko on February 23, 2005, 11:21:12 AM
Quote
It might totally ruin the whole idea of a plant league too.

 :huh: What idea of a plant league?


Quote
And what about bots that feed on other bots?


You must have missed this bit.

Quote
2 The specialization points define how efficiently a robot is able to gain energy from a given food source. He can choose between Photosynthesis to gain energy from daylight, Chemosynthesis (probably not a real word) to convert energy directly from chemicals in the environment such as Sulfer from a black smoker or feeding on other robots.

Makes no difference if you shoot or tie feed. This is referring to efficiency at metabolizing the food you get back from either.

Have you been following the recent thread (http://darwinbots.proboards20.com/index.cgi?board=general&num=1108037551&action=display&start=30) in the old Forum where this idea was first discussed?

 :D  PY  :D

PS Boring?  Me?  Obviously he don't know me too well :rolleyes:
Title: Photosynthesis
Post by: Numsgil on February 23, 2005, 11:24:40 AM
PY, what about the enzyme idea I had above?  Worth a shot or no-go?
Title: Photosynthesis
Post by: PurpleYouko on February 23, 2005, 11:34:51 AM
I should say that it works out as pretty much the same as my specialization idea. You just produce enzymes for whichever type of food you want to eat. I still think it should be fixed at birth though. How many sharks have you ever known that can suddenly switch diets to eating Kelp?

Some plants such as the venus Venus fly trap (http://www.botany.org/bsa/misc/carn.html) supplement their photosynthesis by digesting animal tissue. They obviously produce some sort of enzyme to do it but as before, this is fixed at birth and can't be contolled later.

The only difference I see is that you have 20 bits while I proposed 5. No big deal either way. You just have to work out an exponential gain in efficiency for multiple specialization. ie. if a "Plant" wants to be super efficient at photosynthesis, it spends all 5 (20) specialization points on photosythesis, it will have to produce more energy than 5 (20) single points could produce.

Incidentally, single celled alg seem to manage to photosynthesize pretty well without getting huge.

Have you coded any of this yet?

 :D  PY  :D
Title: Photosynthesis
Post by: Numsgil on February 23, 2005, 11:49:55 AM
I've just started the prototyping for the stomachs and mouths and shots, and all that good stuff.  Nothing actually done yet.

I think the machinery for producing the enzymes should be fixed at birth, but you should be able to build more enzymes to digest faster.

Food sits in your stomach until it is digested.  The more enzymes you have to digest it, the faster you can.  Undigestable bits are, of course, expelled as waste.

I don't necessarily like the idea of making the existing enzymes more efficient as you specialize.  Seems a little bit artificial.  I don't have a satisfactory replacement though.

Maybe something will come to me later...

Maybe the more you specialize the faster you can build enzymes.  Then enzymes are lost over time, so you have to constantly be making more.  Not sure though.
Title: Photosynthesis
Post by: Anonomous Guest Person on February 23, 2005, 04:22:16 PM
The problem with the shark arguement is that it assumes all the bots in DarwinBots are multi-cellular. Very multi-cellular.
It'd be simple to rework a single cell. It'd be nearly impossible to rework millions, without causing a metamorphosis.
And further more, with a metamorphosis, the organism's diet can change.
In fact, the reason any organism would have a metamorphosis, on a design side of view, is so that reproduction can be cheap, and organisms can still become powerful. Once they've gained the proper energy as a juvenile to grow into a powerful organism, that is.

So, therefore, your arguement is invalid, and simply is a mostly general case. But I believe most insects go through a metamorphosis. In fact, I'm pretty sure ALL of them do!
Title: Photosynthesis
Post by: Numsgil on February 23, 2005, 04:35:49 PM
I think, therefore, that it must take some time to change specializations.
Title: Photosynthesis
Post by: PurpleYouko on February 23, 2005, 05:17:43 PM
Quote
The problem with the shark arguement is that it assumes all the bots in DarwinBots are multi-cellular. Very multi-cellular.
It'd be simple to rework a single cell. It'd be nearly impossible to rework millions, without causing a metamorphosis.
And further more, with a metamorphosis, the organism's diet can change.
In fact, the reason any organism would have a metamorphosis, on a design side of view, is so that reproduction can be cheap, and organisms can still become powerful. Once they've gained the proper energy as a juvenile to grow into a powerful organism, that is.

So, therefore, your arguement is invalid, and simply is a mostly general case. But I believe most insects go through a metamorphosis. In fact, I'm pretty sure ALL of them do!
OK then lets get a bit more specific at a single cellular level if the shark idiom doesn't cut it for you.

How about the nitrogen cycle that changes Ammonia into Nitrates in an aquarium and at the bottom of a pond.

There are 2 bacteria (yes single celled) that carry out this process.

The first one is called Nitrosomonas. It lives by converting ammonia into Nitrite. In the absence of ammonia it dies. It cannot adapt to another food source EVER.

The second is called Nitrobacter. It derives its energy by converting Nitrite into Nitrate. This is called Nitrogen fixing. It relies on Nitrosomonas to live. If there is no Nitrite then it dies. It cannot adapt to any other food source.

How many generations of bacteria do you think it takes to get from one food source to a different one.

How about The Nylon Bug (http://www.nmsr.org/nylon.htm)? It mutated to feed on a completely novel food source. The point is that it evolved the ability to metabolize Nylon, from one generation to another. A bug that had previously fed on cellulose (for example) didn't suddenly decide to start eating plastic.

Specialization requires evolution not mutation.

 :D  PY  :D
Title: Photosynthesis
Post by: Numsgil on February 23, 2005, 05:27:17 PM
I think the problem here is that bots have the machinery to do anything that any other bot can do.  Bots can't evolve ways to create new machinery.  We can limit their access to machinery, but that's about it.
Title: Photosynthesis
Post by: Anonomous Guest Person on February 23, 2005, 05:33:31 PM
Probably quite a lot of generations. But DarwinBots simulations are defaulted to small areas.
And the bots themselves can go pretty fast, as well.
It doesn't take one very long to go from one side of the field to the other on a default simulation.

Your arguement may be valid. However, mere specializations seem very flat.

(Eheh. I wrote this post up, and only remembered to post at least five or six minutes later. <_< )
Title: Photosynthesis
Post by: Anonomous Guest Person on February 23, 2005, 05:42:31 PM
Quote
I think the problem here is that bots have the machinery to do anything that any other bot can do.  Bots can't evolve ways to create new machinery.  We can limit their access to machinery, but that's about it.
Perhaps you could add another section to the bot's DNA file, which gives it it's physical form.
This, however, would be a huge step, and would likely be the jump from version 2.xx to 3.00 if it's added.
Title: Photosynthesis
Post by: Numsgil on February 23, 2005, 05:57:23 PM
Huge step would be an understatement.

We'd have to define the mechanics that govern the cell.  I think that moves into the realm of doctorate dissertation.
Title: Photosynthesis
Post by: Anonomous Guest Person on February 23, 2005, 06:18:03 PM
But it would prove more worthwile then specializations would.

Instead of having:

Code: [Select]
'Alga Minimalis UPDATED

spec
5 photo spec
stop

cond
  *.nrg 6000 >
start
  50 .repro store
  15 .aimdx store
stop
end

We could have:

Code: [Select]
'Alga Minimalis UPDATED

body
  1 .photo build
  1 .wharvest build
  1 .wrecycle build
stop

cond
  *.nrg 6000 >
start
  50 .repro store
  15 .aimdx store
stop

cond
start
  50 *.sunlight div .photo store
  50 .wharvest store
  50 .wrecycle store
stop
end

To explain, .sunlight is how much light the bot is getting, .photo is pretty much how I described it in the first post, .wharvest is something that allows you to gather waste from the enviroment easily, and .wrecycle turns waste into energy.

To further explain the mechanics of the latter system, body is what starts a one-time running system that builds the bot's mechanics. It can be affected by mutation as well. It can use the stacking system as it pleases, and any memory locations that exist.
Build takes the last item from the stack, and builds it. If there's a second last item on the stack, it'll build it by that many times.
To see, you would need to build an .eye, as well as any features you want from it (without any special features, it'd tell you simple stuff like .refbody, but not stuff like .refshoot).
What's the advantage of building a mechanic multiple times? It allows more energy to be used.
Why not simply build everything that exists? Because each mechanic you build will cost energy, and generate waste.
If the user set the energy cost to 1 per mechanic, and the waste gain to 0.2 per mechanic, that Alga Minimalis would lose 3 energy per turn, and gain 0.6 waste per turn.
Waste will sooner or later become permanent waste with any particularily efficient robots, which will build up, and give it mortality.
Energy costs mean making a good energy efficient bot will become slightly more complicated.

(Note: Certain mechanics could have unusual functions when building more then one. One eye, for example, could allow the maximum to become 25, or 50. Two would double it. Of course, there'd be a limit to such things, such as 5-10 eyes being built (even though in reality, the bot would only have one, that's 5-10 times as good!))
Title: Photosynthesis
Post by: Zelos on February 24, 2005, 02:09:17 AM
why turn waste to energy? why not make regions that contain something like "organics". organics can be converted to energy whit Photosynthesis. the amount of organics in the region which the plant is in adn the amount of sunlight decied how hard it is for the plants to grow. here is a plant living in a "dessert"
Code: [Select]
'Alga Minimalis Dessert

body
 1 .photo build
 3 .orgharvest build
 2 .orgnrg build
stop

cond
 *.nrg 6000 >
start
 50 .repro store
 15 .aimdx store
stop

cond
start
 50 *.sunlight div .photo store
 50 .orgharvest store
 50 .orgnrg store
stop
end
.orgharvest = this allowe you to harvest organics from the ground
.orgnrg = this allow you to convert organics to energy
in a dessert there is alot of sunlight, but not so much organics, becuase of that this plant has increased its ability to harvest organics (to take the little amount that there is) and also its ability to turn the organics to nrg. what do you think of this "food region" idea?
Title: Photosynthesis
Post by: Numsgil on February 24, 2005, 02:20:02 AM
A couple things:

I think a bot that is fixed to its pos should have a greater ability to harvest stuff from the environment (roots.  There are some unicellular plants with roots, such as the marine alga Acetabularia).

Or perhaps silicate and calcium increase the friction of the area they're in, allowing a multibot plant to anchor itself in the substrate with 'roots' cells.

Check out my last post in waste conversion (http://s9.invisionfree.com/DarwinBots_Forum/index.php?showtopic=61) thread.
Title: Photosynthesis
Post by: k0zm0 on February 24, 2005, 02:59:51 AM
PY, is there going to be CO2 and O2 in the system? If not, there is no point talking about  photosynthesis, because without CO2 and O2, there is none.

Another thing: I like this point system. About as I can tell, this points should be multipliers. If bot uses all of his 5 points on a photosynthesis, then energy by   photosynthesis would be made more efficiently (more nrg) than energy made by storing only 1 point into photosynthesis.

About specialization. It's all in genes... that's about specialization we need. We set the first 5 points and we have set the specialization.
Title: Photosynthesis
Post by: Numsgil on February 24, 2005, 03:15:16 AM
Will I do?  :rolleyes:

There will be O2 and CO2 in the env grid, but their existence has no bearing on photosynthesis's existance in the simulation.  Vegs already get energy from the system.  That's a simple model of photosynthesis.  Because we don't chose to model something doesn't mean it doesn't exist in the simulation, it just means its taken for granted.

The water cycle, for instance, is taken for granted.  Doesn't mean water doesn't exist in the simulation.


PY's system would make you more efficient as you invested more points in a particular area.

Check out the idea Anon Guest Person and I hammered out. (http://s9.invisionfree.com/DarwinBots_Forum/index.php?showtopic=89)

It's a bit of a read, I admit, but I think it incorporates PY's idea, Anon's idea, and my idea into a single system.  Though instead of 5 points to invest you get 20 or 35 or whatever.  Basically same idea.
Title: Photosynthesis
Post by: PurpleYouko on February 24, 2005, 09:52:39 AM
Quote
Perhaps you could add another section to the bot's DNA file, which gives it it's physical form.


That is pretty much what I am talking about.
The robots would have a definition section in the DNA, a bit like custom variable names now. It is contained in the DNA text file but is not directly accessed by the DNA during activations in the robot's lifetime.
(incidentally we need to be able to read this stuff from the robot console)

When writing a robot DNA file, it will be possible to define it fully but only evolution (mutations) will allow it to change through successive generations.

To keep things backward compatible, all robots without this extra bit of text in their DNA file will be treated as specialized carnivores and the "autotroph" button in the control panel will switch them to specialized veggies (metabolize waste nutrients like NO3 and sunlight)

All sims will have day-mode activated so that sunlight is present. Top down sims (regular mode) will have equal sunlight across the whole field while pondmode sims (side view) will use the sunlight gradient method.

Are we all getting on the same page yet? I think we may be zeroing in on a plan.

 :D  PY  :D
Title: Photosynthesis
Post by: Numsgil on February 24, 2005, 01:03:15 PM
Quote
The robots would have a definition section in the DNA, a bit like custom variable names now. It is contained in the DNA text file but is not directly accessed by the DNA during activations in the robot's lifetime.
(incidentally we need to be able to read this stuff from the robot console)

We all have different ways of doing it, but it looks like we all agree on this point especially.

Quote
When writing a robot DNA file, it will be possible to define it fully but only evolution (mutations) will allow it to change through successive generations.

This is where the debate comes in.  I think I have a solution, using a technique I outlined in another post (http://s9.invisionfree.com/DarwinBots_Forum/index.php?showtopic=89) (which incidentally needs a reply  :rolleyes: ).

We have an array of bit strings (ie: numbers, probably longs) that represent the attributes of the different enzymes/mechanics that the cell has.  We seed a very good randomizer with these values. (something with a very large period).

The number that the randomizer returns is then fed into a function that determines what that enzyme/mechanic does, and how well it does it.

Now, the fun part comes in as these bit patterns are allowed to mutate.  We can have things like bit change, bit shift (frame shift in DNA), etc.

This way, we can still turn on/off mechanics for a bonus, but we can also mutate new mechanics or new enzymes.

I think that mirrors the actual system so well.  I should get some accolades!   :ph43r:
Title: Photosynthesis
Post by: PurpleYouko on February 24, 2005, 01:31:52 PM
The mechanics stuff is pretty complex.
I hope we aren't going too far with this. My proposal was a lot simpler.

The setup section of the DNA looks very similar to what I was thinking about so I guess we are all more or less agreed on that part of it.

I still have a big problem with robots changing their feeding specializations during a single lifetime though. I just don't see this happening.
You may be able to get better at something that you can already do by practicing (muscles get bigger with use etc. but I don't care how many pieces of nylon you try to eat, you just ain't gonna metabolize it. The mechanism just isn't there to start with and mutation is the only way it ever will be.
If you are proposing that robots mutate during their own lifetime then that is a different issue entirely and has nothing to do with specialization.

I still maintain that a creature is born with all the specializations it is ever going to get. It may not use them all but they are there and do not change during its lifetime. Getting stronger with practice or by actively discarding certain functions to direct more energy at the ones you want are not specialization in the form that I am talking about. I am refering to the genetic blueprint which sets the initial possibilities to specialize.

A creature born to metabolize cellulose is never going to learn to metabolize sulphides and vice versa, in one generation.

 :D  PY  :D
Title: Photosynthesis
Post by: Numsgil on February 24, 2005, 02:10:30 PM
I think the problem is we are talking about different sides of the same coin. I'm trying to allow multibots' parts to specialize (cellular specialization) and you are working on how a species specializes over time.

Both need to be present in the end system.  Turning off mechanics to improve efficiency allows multibots' cells to specialize, but doesn't really make sense in a single bot.  But we shouldn't artificially impose limitations on singlebots.

I'm hoping the majority of the complexity is behind the scenes.  The bit system I outlined above would allow the kind of frame shift that allowed bacteria to begin digesting nylon.
Title: Photosynthesis
Post by: PurpleYouko on February 24, 2005, 02:24:36 PM
You may have hit the nail on the head there Num.

I haven't even thought about specialization in different cells within an MB. My thrust (as you say) is entirely toward speciation and evolution of the species as a whole.
But still each part of a multicellular organism can only do what it was programmed to be able to do at birth. Admittedly, cells mutate as they are born so that each cell is not quite a perfect match for those around it but I don't see that radically changing the way the MB works like going from Herbivore to Carnivore. Both possibilities would need to be initially available from birth and since both are present then neither can be fully specialized in. What you have is an omnivore that can go both ways but not as good as either a truly specialized herbivore or a truly specialized carnivore.

So you are suggesting the ability to switch off chunks of existing DNA in certain cells of an MB right? That is a decent enough plan.
Do you have any easy way for a cell within the MB to know what it is supposed to be though.
Take a tadpole or something similar, consiting of maybe four cells that specialize in feeding at various angles (the head) and a string of muscular cells to wiggle back and forth to provide propulsion. How do we tell each cell what it is supposed to do? That has always been the most difficult part of programming MBs

Your bit system looks really good but I still say the bit pattern needs to be fixed at the birth of the cell and never changed during its life except for random mutations due to radiation sickness or some other environmental conditions

 :D  PY  :D
Title: Photosynthesis
Post by: Numsgil on February 24, 2005, 02:34:18 PM
Quote
You may have hit the nail on the head there Num.

I haven't even thought about specialization in different cells within an MB. My thrust (as you say) is entirely toward speciation and evolution of the species as a whole.
But still each part of a multicellular organism can only do what it was programmed to be able to do at birth. Admittedly, cells mutate as they are born so that each cell is not quite a perfect match for those around it but I don't see that radically changing the way the MB works like going from Herbivore to Carnivore. Both possibilities would need to be initially available from birth and since both are present then neither can be fully specialized in. What you have is an omnivore that can go both ways but not as good as either a truly specialized herbivore or a truly specialized carnivore.

So you are suggesting the ability to switch off chunks of existing DNA in certain cells of an MB right? That is a decent enough plan.
Do you have any easy way for a cell within the MB to know what it is supposed to be though.
Take a tadpole or something similar, consiting of maybe four cells that specialize in feeding at various angles (the head) and a string of muscular cells to wiggle back and forth to provide propulsion. How do we tell each cell what it is supposed to do? That has always been the most difficult part of programming MBs

Your bit system looks really good but I still say the bit pattern needs to be fixed at the birth of the cell and never changed during its life except for random mutations due to radiation sickness or some other environmental conditions

 :D  PY  :D
Yeah, the first 'germ cell' of a MB would be the most generalized any final cell can get.  But each of the cells needs a way to remember the original generalized form, so things like tail regeneration is possible.

So a cell should only be able to turn on a mechanism or enzyme it still has the code for.

Quote
Do you have any easy way for a cell within the MB to know what it is supposed to be though.

I can't even find any information on how real cells do this!

Quote
Your bit system looks really good but I still say the bit pattern needs to be fixed at the birth of the cell and never changed during its life except for random mutations due to radiation sickness or some other environmental conditions

I agree.  The bit patterns are what enzymes/mechanisms are actually available to turn on or make, and shouldn't be changed except in extreme cases.
Title: Photosynthesis
Post by: PurpleYouko on February 24, 2005, 03:37:34 PM
Looks like we have reached a common solution then  B)

I say go with your bit system and give cells the ability to shut down (not delete) sections of DNA that they don't need.

Next thing we need is some way to actually define MB shapes and stuff. That isn't going to be easy

 :D  PY  :D
Title: Photosynthesis
Post by: Numsgil on February 24, 2005, 03:50:08 PM
It doesn't help that every resource I've found on how human embryos develop might as well say 'magic'.

If we can figure out how real cells learn to differentiate and orient themselves maybe we can apply it to DB.
Title: Photosynthesis
Post by: PurpleYouko on February 24, 2005, 03:55:38 PM
Where is Shvarz when you need him?

Bloody Hawaii! That's where!

Lucky git!  :ph43r:

 :D  PY  :D
Title: Photosynthesis
Post by: Old Henk on February 25, 2005, 10:25:43 AM
A cell in a human embryo knows it's location using a chemical gradient.
As the Embryo grows, that gradient is more and more complicated, so that cells in the eyes know they have to be eye-cells.

http://www.phys.psu.edu/people/display/?pe...cription_id=711 (http://www.phys.psu.edu/people/display/?person_id=202;mode=research;research_description_id=711)

Maybe somthing similar can be reached using some clever programming. Just let the head bot fix itself to the spot and use racial memory to get a 'picture' of current position.

Henk  -_-
Title: Photosynthesis
Post by: Zelos on February 25, 2005, 10:59:12 AM
exacly, it would be a good idea, ifnt mother nature had come up whitt it before us ;)
now its just an idea
 B) zelos B)
Title: Photosynthesis
Post by: Endy on February 27, 2005, 12:39:47 AM
I'm in Hawaii myself. Maybe I should track down shvarz, and get his response. :D

Endy ;)
Title: Photosynthesis
Post by: Zelos on February 27, 2005, 01:51:33 AM
good idea, track him down and  :shoot:  ;)
Title: Photosynthesis
Post by: Old Henk on February 27, 2005, 01:49:31 PM
Easy. Look for a (fat(?)) russian looking guy and yell DarwinBot Snapshot funtion at him. If he runs away screaming "Not again!!! aaargh!", it's bound to be Shvarz... :lol: :D
Title: Photosynthesis
Post by: Botsareus on February 27, 2005, 02:44:37 PM
Lol Henk;

Can robots mutate there own stuff like
Quote
body
1 .photo build
3 .orgharvest build
2 .orgnrg build
stop

Therefore, a hunter can change into a plant if there is an Advantage.


[you]Another Thing:[/you]

Everything in our system is dna (start stop) there is no such thing as "body" or "spec". So lets keep the languge simple people. ex:

Quote
cond
start
1 .photo build
3 .orgharvest build
2 .orgnrg build
stop

If you still like to keep body Seporatly we just make the program place it on top automatically and add a comment ex:

Quote
'/[BODY]**********************/
cond
start
1 .photo build
3 .orgharvest build
2 .orgnrg build
stop
'\***************************\
cond
.goodrange eye =
start
-1 . :shoot: store
stop
Title: Photosynthesis
Post by: Endy on February 28, 2005, 04:31:45 PM
:lol:  :D  :)
Endy ;)
Title: Photosynthesis
Post by: Botsareus on February 28, 2005, 06:39:40 PM
Endy that means you agree or that means you are lafing on me or what?
Title: Photosynthesis
Post by: Numsgil on February 28, 2005, 06:41:20 PM
I think it means he likes smileys.
Title: Photosynthesis
Post by: Botsareus on February 28, 2005, 06:42:45 PM
I dont care about no smiles , I just want to know if people like my idea or not.

You know people always do that here , there is no sutch thing as "nothing to say".


Exsept for me, when I have "Nothing to say" it means I agree with out a dought..
Bot I am not sure are other people the same way? So the new qustion is are they?
Just say "yes"
Title: Photosynthesis
Post by: Botsareus on February 28, 2005, 06:55:52 PM
Part of my post above is more like an offtopic so dont make me start a poll...
Title: Photosynthesis
Post by: Numsgil on February 28, 2005, 07:09:10 PM
Still working on the logistics from the DNA's point of view.

PY and I've listed a few ideas around the forum.
Title: Photosynthesis
Post by: Botsareus on February 28, 2005, 07:34:19 PM
Still Brainstorming on the logistics from the DNA's point of view.

PY and Num and Botsareus listed a few ideas around the forum.

correction

not:

Quote
Still working on the logistics from the DNA's point of view.

PY and I've listed a few ideas around the forum.
Title: Photosynthesis
Post by: Numsgil on February 28, 2005, 07:37:08 PM
Aright, aright.

No need to get to a tizzy.
Title: Photosynthesis
Post by: Botsareus on February 28, 2005, 07:45:28 PM
ok, just tell me when you or PY finaly Decide witch one to code.
Title: Photosynthesis
Post by: Zelos on March 01, 2005, 01:06:21 AM
I think instant of a code like
Code: [Select]
cond
start
1 .photo build
3 .orgharvest build
2 .orgnrg build
stop
we can use the enzyme idea. some enzymes/proteins can get those jobs.  :cheers:
 :lecture: zelos :lecture:
Title: Photosynthesis
Post by: shvarz on March 05, 2005, 11:20:25 PM
OK, I'm back from Hawaii and I have read this whole post (I made a list of all people who made fun of me  :devil: )

Specialization:  It is completely explained by two things.

One is that DNA defines function.  The more potential functions you want to have, the more DNA you need.  You cannot acquire functions during your lifetime, only through mutations.

Two is that almost no organism is using all its potential functions.  It uses those that are necessary in environment it lives in.  Potential functions get better and better every time you use them.  If you don't use a function, the DNA for that function is turned off at first and later it is labeled as not-used and is turned off more and more.  Kind of like light in your house.  First you can turn off the light with the switch, then after a while you can disconnect entire house and then later you can shut down the power plant.  If all of a sudden you want to turn the light on - you have to go back all the way to power plant, turn it on, connect your house and flip the switch.  On the other side, if you don't need light now, but want to have the ability to quickly turn it on later, then you have to keep the whole system going, even though you don't actively use it.

Now back to DBs:  Genes define function in DB, so here we are set.  But turning genes on and off is very easy in DBs and right now it does not matter how often you used that gene.  What we need is a system that would allow genes to get more efficient when they are used often at the cost of getting less efficient in functions that are not used.  The system should also allow some genes to be not used, but kept reaady to go (at some cost).  If we do that, we have specialization.  It is really that easy and there is no need to come up with more complicated systems.
Title: Photosynthesis
Post by: Zelos on March 10, 2005, 02:01:47 PM
ive found something interesting about photosythenis, when the photosythensis was young, they didnt uset he formula
6(CO2)+6(H2O)->C6H12O6+6(O2)
they used:
6(CO2)+6(H2S)->C6H12O6+6(SO)
and when they used the C6H12O6 they didnt use oxygen, they simply spilted it like
C6H12O6->2(C3H6O3)+2ATP
but whit oxygen you get 36-38 ATP, much better :D