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General => Off Topic => Topic started by: Welwordion on April 18, 2006, 02:11:04 PM

Title: Mmog with the goal to survive
Post by: Welwordion on April 18, 2006, 02:11:04 PM
While reading I stumbled somewhere over the lines, that someeone wished there would be more MMO games where you would need to colonize a world from scratch.
Well I myself also hope for better MMOG out there and I always wished for a game that would concentrate more on the aspect fighting for survival than killing for money exp and loot.
What about you?
What are your wishes for such a game? What features you would want?
Lets just  dream a little and plan or "perfect game" we never find out there.
Title: Mmog with the goal to survive
Post by: PurpleYouko on April 18, 2006, 04:02:52 PM
If you are interested in MMO games then you should probably head on over to Kuro-Tejina (http://kuro-tejina.shroom.net/Forums/phpBB2/) where I have a forum set up just for that purpose. The eventual aim is to use the site to launch my own MMORPG so now is a good time to discuss what would be good in such a game.
Title: Mmog with the goal to survive
Post by: Numsgil on April 18, 2006, 04:09:38 PM
I beleive that was me you were reading

Basically it's a game I've wanted to play since spring 2004.  At first I just wanted to find a game like that to play.  As time grows and I couldn't find anything even remotely like that (a few links later on) I've become increasingly ravenous.  If I ever reach a point with Darwinbots where I feel good to take a long break, that's probably what I'd start working on.

There's three ideas I'm balancing in my mind.  Sometimes I confuse them, but I think they're really somewhat different:

1.  Procedural world generation, perhaps even generating a universe of billions of stars with realistically scaled planets you can explore on foot (it's technically feasible, games like Noctis (http://noctis.sl.ecwhost.com/) do it).  Such a game would be primarily about exploration.

There aren't any games that are really about exploration except maybe Noctis and the old school Commodore 64 game 7 Cities of Gold (where you were a spanish explorer).

When I was growing up we lived behind Edwards Airforce Base, which was surrounded by wilderness.  A kind of miny forest.  I loved just exploring the forest as a kid.

With a sophisticated procedurally generator you could create a world of sheer aesthetic beauty, that's a joy just to be in.

2.  Survival.  Stay put in the same couple square kilometers and survive starting with absolutely nothing.  Like being dropped naked in a virgin landscape.  In some ways this is sort of similar to River World or Hatchet.

This is something I'd sort of like to do in real life, but really don't have the time for (well, I could probably make the time...)

What I find most alluring is building up some sort of technology level from nothing.  Start with some flint and bones and build up rudimentary technology.  A house, etc.  Master the elements, so to speak.

If this is in an MMO setting, it would be interesting to watch and see if things like currency can develop on their own.  What sort of society rules develop.  And developers should take a non interference role, and just let society go all to pot if that happens.

The basic point is that you can die at any moment.  You can't really "level" your character.  A rock to the head can kill Samson as easily as Goliath.  Your character could be hundreds of days worth of work when he falls victim to food poisoning and dies.  Or he could slip and fall off a cliff.  Or he could drown when he tries swimming too far.  You want the death to be directly a result of the player's actions (instead of just random), but you want it to be permanent.

And then you start over.

The closest game I've found like this is UnReal World (http://www.jmp.fi/~smaarane/urw.html), which is unfortunately quite dated (and the guy is something of a copyright Nazi, refusing to release either source and still expecting to be payed for this old game.  I'm not against programmers getting payed for a game, but this game is seriously old).  Though it's still fun, I'd like to see a game like this expanded and refreshed.   A game where you can just live another life.

3.  A "living" world - I don't mean what modern games call living.  I don't mean a static world with maybe a couple of semi-intelligent NPCs going through the motions of life.

Things should matter.  If enough people kill enough deer, deer populations should begin to dwindle, which should effect the behavior and number of wolves.  Maybe wolves begin raiding towns and attacking people and rummaging through garbage.

If I cut down a tree that tree shouldn't regrow in 10 minutes, or 10 hours, or any time.  It's dead.  New trees might grow in its place slowly, having trouble as the ground is chocked with the dead tree's roots.  The process should be long.  If I clear cut an entire grove, it should stay dead.  If I plant an entire grove of trees they should live and grow and reproduce.

The idea is that actions matter, they have some lasting consequence.  Nothing in the world is permanent.  Take Morrowind for instance.  You can't break through walls.  You can't set a bomb and destroy the Temple of Vivic unless it's part of the story.  Even in a "free form" game like that the world feels very static.  I can't get a shovel and dig a hole, or build a dam in the river.  Admitedly that's not the game's point.

Or take most modern MMOs.  You kill an orc in a cave and a new one just appears out of nowhere.  I'd like to see orcs needing to be born from an Orc daddy and an Orc mommy.  And when they get hunted to extinction there's no magic resurection.  You kill all the orcs in the world and orcs are extinct.  You're not going to see another one.

You clear cut all the world's trees and it's an Easter Island/Lorax disaster.  No game developer is going to plop another one down for you.  Tough luck bucko.


Alot of these things are rather far fetched in some ways.  The technology for doing alot of these things is still in its infancy.  I'm willing to see compromises.  Heck, use old 2D graphics, I don't mind.  Music can be old Midis.  Sound effects can be little beeps and boops.
Title: Mmog with the goal to survive
Post by: PurpleYouko on April 18, 2006, 04:52:35 PM
I completely agree with a lot of what you are saying and while your suggestions would indeed be pretty cool, you would probably have trouble finding players who would be willing to stick it out for long, particularly if charcter death is final.

Point 1 I agree completely. The game needs to be absolutely massive with loads of places to simply explore if that's what you are into.

Point 2 I think should be more of an option. I would design the world around a few hubs of civilization and allow people to adventure out into the wilderness and play survival as well if that's what they want.

Point 3 is definitely where I am heading. A totally living, persistent world where a chopped down tree slowly rots and new ones grow back over a long period of time. Probably a lot faster than in real life but still along certain rules

Additionally MMO players like to have quests and in every MMO that I have played, these are extremely linear. That is to say that each new character has to go through the same set of quests in the same (or similar) sequence. This also means that time doesn't actually pass for real in these worlds and that no matter how many people go out and collect 50 "Startstones" for the little guy on the corner of the street, the next player to come along will still have to get more.
On quest that you have to do near the start of FlyFF (discussions on Juro-Tejina) (http://kuro-tejina.shroom.net/Forums/phpBB2/viewforum.php?f=30) is for this guy who whines on about not being able to go home because there are too many monsters in the way. You have to kill about 20 of them so that he can go. Trouble is, the pillock never goes. he just stands there and whines to the next player.

I plan to make random quests that can only ever be completed by one player. If you aren't the first one back with the goodies, tough. Somebody else beat you to it and the guy isn't there any more.

I also plan to include a random dungeon generator with dungeons that gradually disappear once they have been fully looted and all the goblins killed.
Monsters WILL NOT simply spawn the way they do in most games. They will have to find a lair then reproduce in it until they spill over into nearby areas.

I have a whole bunch of specific plans for the project even though I haven't actually got stuck into the coding just yet.

As I said, come on over to Kuro-Tejina (http://kuro-tejina.shroom.net/Forums/phpBB2/index.php) if you are interested.
Title: Mmog with the goal to survive
Post by: Numsgil on April 18, 2006, 05:07:34 PM
The main problem I see is that MMOs must inherantly distance the player from the world so that it's "fair".

Which I totally understand.  It's no fun going into a used stall at a truck stop that the guy before you has managed to spray feces all over.

Which is why I think it would be nice to have a minimally massive online game (mMO).

Have like 12 to 50 guys connect to a buddies server in his house, or better yet, have a P2P network; the more players you have the more the world huffs and puffs.  Don't worry about hackers or people exploiting things.  Don't worry about griefers.  If someone does something you don't like, you can just kick him out.  It's just you and a bunch of your buddies playing in your own little reality.  You have complete control over the world.

The closest thing to this I've found is RunUO (http://www.runuo.com/), which let's you (technically illegally, but EA doesn't really seem to care) set up your own Ultima Online shard, and totally customize it (the entire thing is set up in scripts).

Quote from: PurpleYouko
I completely agree with a lot of what you are saying and while your suggestions would indeed be pretty cool, you would probably have trouble finding players who would be willing to stick it out for long, particularly if charcter death is final.

 Character death is only an issue if your gameplay has the character constantly putting himself in danger.
 
 Most MMOs concentrate on combat, so it wouldn't be fun to have permanent death.
 
 A game that's about something else (A Tale in the Desert (http://game1.atitd.com/main.html) comes to mind) makes risk like it is in real life - something you can avoid if you're carfeul.
Title: Mmog with the goal to survive
Post by: Welwordion on April 18, 2006, 05:21:31 PM
I always liked the feeling of malleabilities, maybe it some thirst for power or only the enjoyment to watch the everchanging, I like it when a world transforms evolves thinks are created and destroyed the whole world whirls forward and you are a part of it. (thats probably the same reason I am attracted to alife games)

I am convinced  that a true mmog should have some kind of physics, ways that thing works, transform and effect each other and that the rest should emerge from the complexity of combination.
(the problem is always to find the right system)

I am not quite so harcore regarding dead like you, but I want to fight for survival rather than standing there and
asking myself what purpose there is in killing monster for progression.
Thats why I would propose  that you should not lead a single char  but rather something like a family, so you would not get this: my char died because of a little mistake and now all was for nothing feeling, but rather:
Now the children have to carry on or it was worth dieing as long as the children life on.

I agree that the current leveling sytems are stupid as the concentrate on gaining strength(mostly fighting strength), buts as I want  to build up something I also do not want a char to be stagnant, rather I want the grow be in the diversity abd possibilities if of the char.
Like learning to climb gives you access to new places and adjusting to radiation gives you the possibility to survive in certain places.
These possibilities might also be magical like entering the farie realm or tinkering with the shape and grow of other organism. A char should be able to aquire a certain amount of these possibilities until he reaches his limit.
Such you would choose the form of your char and would need to put in some effort but once you aqquired your full potential you should stay like this and it would be up to you what you reach with your limited powers.
(this potential should either be reached very early or aqquired abilities should stay as lore in the family)

Be it starships or magic towers I want to see people cooperate driven by need, goals, ideals and greed.
So to say its the necessities the limits that give the game they purpose.

Note: It might be cool if there are certain locations that can only be reached by a certain combination of traits in a single or maybe in multiple people.
example: You need to be "small" so you can enter a certain cave, down there is a lava river to cross so you need to be fire resistant, then you reach a root of the Yggdrasil tree
as you have  the ability to fuse with living things you enter the root and reach  the core of the Yggdrasil tree, or use the tree as a connection to another pace.
Title: Mmog with the goal to survive
Post by: Numsgil on April 18, 2006, 05:39:29 PM
Quote from: Welwordion
Thats why I would propose that you should not lead a single char but rather something like a family, so you would not get this: my char died because of a little mistake and now all was for nothing feeling, but rather:
Now the children have to carry on or it was worth dieing as long as the children life on.

 I like that.

 
Quote
These possibilities might also be magical like entering the farie realm or tinkering with the shape and grow of other organism. A char should be able to aquire a certain amount of these possibilities until he reaches his limit.

 I never really liked the idea of a limit.  Real life seems less to do with limits and more to do with specialization.  I could spend time and learn a little about everything, or I could concentrate on one thing.  The limiting factor is simply time.
 
 
Quote
Note: It might be cool if there are certain locations that can only be reached by a certain combination of traits in a single or maybe in multiple people.
example: You need to be "small" so you can enter a certain cave, down there is a lava river to cross so you need to be fire resistant, then you reach a root of the Yggdrasil tree
as you have the ability to fuse with living things you enter the root and reach the core of the Yggdrasil tree, or use the tree as a connection to another pace.

 I'm not against cooperation, but I always wanted to be able to solo everything in MMOs.  It's more fun for me to be self sufficient.  I'm not saying it should be easy for me.  But I once spent 30 minutes opening a car door with a hanger when I could have just gone round to the other unlocked door.  I'm stubborn.
Title: Mmog with the goal to survive
Post by: Welwordion on April 18, 2006, 07:40:28 PM
Well to be honest I would prefer of getting all my abilities early, then having to spend tons of time until I can finally use this or this spell.
Also with limit I rather meant the need of specialization, or better to say you are not omnipotent only when you
can not  aquire all abilities their remain weaknesses which make the game challenging.
Some games simulate that by implementing classes, others let unused skill lose points.
So when you say time is the limit , which time do you mean  the playtime of the player or the lifetime of the char, cause when only time is the limit the lifetime of a char would need to be limited, so he can not grow omnipotent.

Quote
I'm not against cooperation, but I always wanted to be able to solo everything in MMOs. It's more fun for me to be self sufficient. I'm not saying it should be easy for me. But I once spent 30 minutes opening a car door with a hanger when I could have just gone round to the other unlocked door. I'm stubborn.
You might have misunderstand me , I think of  a system where  aplayer can choose special traits (like in Vampire the masquerade) a set of special abilities he is born with and  and sometimes a certain combination of special abilities might be required to do something.
So you could choose to either make your char stronger by choosing extra strength, super regeneration, special speed, or choose abilities like flight and faerie blood, that will not raise your attack power by any means but  rather improve certain abilities or allow you to do things that others can not (like entering certain places).
So its rather a matter of customization.
Title: Mmog with the goal to survive
Post by: Numsgil on April 18, 2006, 07:51:31 PM
It depends a great deal on what the point of the MMO is.

In a competitive MMO, where you are in some way competing against others or fighting monsters, you don't want to become omnipotent, because that destroys the point of the game.

In a non-competitive MMO, (A Tale in the Desert being a good example of a non competitive MMO, not necessarily this point though) you could be omnipotent (meaning you have all the skills and can do anything others can) if you worked hard enough, and it wouldn't ruin either your playing experience or someone else's.

I'm interested in non-competitive games.  In a survival game where you just have to stay alive, (which is a constant struggle) and try to raise your standard of living, most of the game play is spent in construction and exploring, things which aren't inherantly competitive.

For instance, you could spend a week real time clearing a small section of forest and building a small house.
Title: Mmog with the goal to survive
Post by: PurpleYouko on April 18, 2006, 07:51:53 PM
One thing I have never been too keen on is when certain classes can only wear certain types of armor and other clothing.
My plan is to build a system where everybody can wear everthing and do anything.

The catch is that you will have to increase skills in certain areas to get the most out of the items.

Magic would be the same. A system of magical symbols, words and movements that can be combined in an almost infinite number of different ways. To start out, a character will only know the barest few of these magic components and will have to find/research them or pay a master to teach him. If a character is the one to find some new and snazzy spell then he will be the master and can teach others (for a price perhaps   )

There are actually 9 distinct types of magic in my world but who's counting?  

Same goes for fighting techniques and any number of other stuff.

Full customizability is the name of the game. No distinct classes or anything like that either.
Title: Mmog with the goal to survive
Post by: Welwordion on April 18, 2006, 08:07:37 PM
I only meant if you are to strong, survival is to easy. Take Superman without Kryptonit there would be nor real challenge for him.
Oh and even in a survival game you compete, however not with other players but with the forces of nature, the animals you hunt and the hardships on your way.
If you can easily can get food their is no challenge in being hungry,also people tend to appreciate stuff more that is harder accomplish right?

P.Y.: Yeah thats what I wanted it to be "full customizability"
Title: Mmog with the goal to survive
Post by: Numsgil on April 18, 2006, 10:25:39 PM
I'm thinking skills in a survival game would be things like lighting a fire, chopping a tree (which if you ever do in real life is serious work, even with modern tools), running without getting tired, etc.

Flying, "magic", etc. aren't necessarily things I think you'd include in a survival MMO.  It would just be distracting.  Though some spirituality might not be terrible.  Dream visions, "astral projection", etc.

Realistically though I think skills and practice should just help you become faster/better at what you're doing instead of letting you do new things.  A "legendary" character that can chop down a tree in a single thwack still isn't unbalanced, since there's more to surviving than chopping down trees.  Since the trees aren't respawning there are still physical limits to his power.

A character that can just materialize wood from nowhere would certainly be unbalanced and would ruin alot of the fun.

I hope that makes sense.
Title: Mmog with the goal to survive
Post by: Endy on April 19, 2006, 12:42:00 AM
Quote
I only meant if you are to strong, survival is to easy. Take Superman without Kryptonit there would be nor real challenge for him.

I agree with this 100%, I've deliberatly created harder situations in my games just to increase the difficulty level.  

To be really fun it needs to be challenging, but not impossible.

Presumably communities would/could still form, from scratch, the same as they do in real life. An area has particullarly valuable resources and people can pool their efforts/tallents to create a better life with the community, than they could alone. Eventually you'd be able to barter your particular skills for what you need instead of having to be at least moderatly talented in every area.

Would also like to see if the different components could be made to evolve ecologically, mentally, and genetically. This way the enviroment and species within could naturally adapt to man's influence. It'd also be nice if there were seeds allowed in the game, these could eventually encourage new growth. They'd also be hoardable incase some nut really does decide to chop every tree. A player with a stash tucked away could definitly come out on top if he's the only one able to supply lumber.
Title: Mmog with the goal to survive
Post by: Welwordion on April 19, 2006, 03:05:45 AM
Well I agree Num: regarding the kind of skills I just want not, that  certain skills are not included cause the would be unrealistic in real life, those skills is what I would call magic.
Maybe it would be better to say magic are abilities based on the physics of the game that from our viewpoint look magical.

Quote
Realistically though I think skills and practice should just help you become faster/better at what you're doing instead of letting you do new things.

Well there is the topic of thinks like writing, you can not write from the start you have to learn it and so there also should be thinks you might have the potential for but still need to learn first.

Also I do not necessary  think of the playing chars as "human" ,so the potentials(what you can learn not how good) you  have mightcould vary based on what kind of creature you are.
So when I say flying I rather mean that you are a winged creature, you choose at the start of your family line (or for each children?)
from a certain pool of traits, which basically give you the potential to learn certain thinks others might not.
For example you could have natural posion or the ability to eat certain kinds of food.

I already thought of similar such Games concepts on paper and had quite the fun imagining what you might be able to do.
Title: Mmog with the goal to survive
Post by: PurpleYouko on April 19, 2006, 10:32:43 AM
Quote
Maybe it would be better to say magic are abilities based on the physics of the game that from our viewpoint look magical.
That is exactly the same thing  
This happens to be the way that I think magic works anyway. All it does is to manipulate the physics of the world in some way. Theoretically, machines should be able to be constructed that could manipulate these same forces.

The way I see a perfect-for-everybody game is that it should include all the magic, weapons, fighting, quests and survival aspects.

If you live in the places where everybody hangs out then survival skills are not important but if you want to be a pioneer and explore the wild frontiers then it becomes a major issue. If you want to live away from the crowds or start a new comunity in the deep forests, hundreds of miles from the nearest city then you will need to boost those survival skills like fire-lighting, food gathering etc. You will also need to be able to fight off wild animal attacks and maybe native tribes (not necessarily Human) that you encounter.

I also see the areas around the big citys expanding as the local populations of wild animals and dungeon-type monsters being systematically exterminated from those areas. Trees wil be chopped down for wood to build new houses and shops which the players can own, live in or work in. As noted before, these trees will not re-grow or at least will take years to do so.

Before too long your fronteir town may become part of a big city and you will need to move to new fronteirs.

I see no major difficulties in bringing all this stuff into one persistent world game.
Title: Mmog with the goal to survive
Post by: Numsgil on April 19, 2006, 11:17:52 AM
Quote from: PurpleYouko
You will also need to be able to fight off wild animal attacks and maybe native tribes (not necessarily Human) that you encounter.

 This is the city slicker's view of the wilderness.
 
 Think Louis and Clark.  Randomly attacked by natives?  Nope, they were helped by natives who were curious.  Most had never seen a European before.
 
 Likewise with animals.  Most animals know better than to approach a human.  The few that do are generally curious.  The few "wild" animals that attack people generally do so because of either:
 
 1.  You stepped on her kid/ touched her kid/ gave her kid a snack, looked at her kid funny.  Momma bear.
 
 2.  They're in heat (bull elephants come to mind.)
 
 If I go to the nearest national park (Land Between the Lakes, about 20 minute drive) and wander randomly around, I'll be lucky if I see anything bigger than a squirrel.  Not because there aren't animals larger than squirrels but because they're terrified of humans (and rightly so).
 
 Quite contrary to games where the local fauna not only are aggressive but hunt you down.  This again has to do with the point of your game.  Is it competitive or cooperative.  Competitve games need to have constant cannon fodder for its players to sharpen their teeth on.  Any game based around combat.
 
 Um,  hehe
Title: Mmog with the goal to survive
Post by: Welwordion on April 19, 2006, 11:33:55 AM
Yes, do not take survival as something optional, a game feature its rather a certain philosophy.
The differencies are tin the way you prefer to lif eand survive, You either do some work to get money and buy food, you go out and hunt down animals or collect fruits (if you are lucky enough to find them)
or you plant something, protect it(so nobody eats your work) help it grow and eat it once its ready.
Of course this is not meant to occupy "all" your time, its only means to give your life a basic challenge.

So to say you can create, conserve or destroy, all will take its effort and so your action will bear meaning and consequences.
Title: Mmog with the goal to survive
Post by: PurpleYouko on April 19, 2006, 12:36:12 PM
Quote
Quite contrary to games where the local fauna not only are aggressive but hunt you down. This again has to do with the point of your game. Is it competitive or cooperative. Competitve games need to have constant cannon fodder for its players to sharpen their teeth on. Any game based around combat.

I see it as a game that can be built around whatever the heck you want. For combat lovers who want to improve those kind of skills there will be plenty of monsters. Not ones that actively hunt them down in most cases though.
For non combat based players there will be options to become a financial giant by opening shops (or massive chains of shops eventually) and manipulating the supply of resources. Options to work together or alone to clear forests and plant grain (or other resource plants) which you can later harvest and sell. You could create a small village then invite others to join you in a co-operative effort. Maybe at first you might be at peace with the native neighbors (human or otherwise) but pretty soon somebody is going to piss them off then you have to defend your new town.
Maybe as a freelance hunter/trapper you can live at one with nature and build up your skills in that area.

I see it as being completely open to do whatever you like in whatever way you like.
Title: Mmog with the goal to survive
Post by: Numsgil on April 19, 2006, 12:46:41 PM
Have you ever played Ultima Online?

IMO that's the best game out there that balances combat and non- combat playing styles.

Unfortunately, the game is still combat based.  Most of the economy revolves around the fighters, who are basically "minting" money everytime they kill something.

I'd like to see a game where the combat is on the fringe of gameplay and the trade skills are at the center.

Fighters risk their life to harvest rare resources instead of crafters working their butts off to construct armor.
Title: Mmog with the goal to survive
Post by: PurpleYouko on April 19, 2006, 12:58:39 PM
No I haven't played Ultima Online.

I played a bunch of their offline games and they have always been made really well.

I want to make an equal mix of combat and non combat.

Some people won't play games that are wholly non-combat and some won't play ones that are all combat. It's hard to please everybody but I intend to try.

Some games have allowed players to "mine" for gold before but that has always been viewed as a pretty lame and boring passtime in an MMO.

I don't see it working to take away all the benefits of killing stuff but I also see no reason why a giant bee should be carrying around a peice of armor and 39 gold pieces that just suddenly appear when you kill it.

I want more realism. If I kill a scabby little goblin who is hitting me with a rusty dagger then what I should get is a rusty dagger and not a +3 sword with gold inlay that's worth 1000s.
Real goodies should only be found on very tough monsters (that actually use them) or in well guarded places like tombs or the heart of a dungeon.

From the other perspective, you should be able to get just as much money by planting stuff (or gathering wild stuff in the forests) and selling your produce at market.
Other players will be specialized in crafting items like ploughs or swords which will help other players.
If the stock levels in all the shops are limited such that they can only sell what players have sold them, then the economy becomes player driven. If stuff is in short supply then the shops will have to pay higher prices and then charge higher prices.

I want to start out with only the very basic stuff available in NPC shops. Anything else must be player created.
Title: Mmog with the goal to survive
Post by: Numsgil on April 19, 2006, 01:09:23 PM
As long as your game system is closed - that is, you're not creating any new items only changing existing raw materials, I think you'd have a fairly consistant player driven economy.
Title: Mmog with the goal to survive
Post by: PurpleYouko on April 19, 2006, 01:30:36 PM
I twould be closed in as much as when you have used up all the available resources from one area then they are gone for ever.

It wouldn't be closed so much with regard to renewable resources like fields of corn or apple trees that can be regularly harvested.

There would also need to be some kind of mint that would release enough tokens of money for everyone to use. This would be one of the few parts of the game that would have to remain in the GM's hands I think.

One idea that I had is for players to spend their real money to buy game money in order to pay for usage of the game. That way you get free play forever if you want to live alone. You just earn a bit of money with what you make yourself. But people who want a quick fix would have to pay for it with their real cash.

Game money would also be consistently siphoned out of the system by GM owned shops. They still have to play by the rules but their profits won't be plowed back into the game.

Obviously as more players join in, there needs to be more total money in the game so a system of money in (from finding natural resources or discovering a new dungeon with some goodies in) versus money out (into GM owned shops)  has to be there to balance out the steady removal of money.
GM owned shops can also be inteligently controlled by the GMs to bypass the system to some degree. For example we could inject a few interesting items into the game from time to time. Not huge amounts of them. just a few now and then. These would become so rare that they would likely go up in value significantly to traders.
Title: Mmog with the goal to survive
Post by: Numsgil on April 19, 2006, 01:57:07 PM
If your system is capable, player created currencies are possible.

In the early days of currency, and even in to modern times when official currency is scarce, all sorts of different small time currencies existed.

The root of currency is in the "IOU one ton of fruit" token to facilitate trade.  People who were trustworthy and actually fulfilled their IOUs became like banks, and the IOUs they issued were as "good as gold".

As currencies became more accepted, the tokens themselves tended to become intrinsically worth less and less.  Gold was first used because of its low weight and volume to worth ratio.  In modern times we use paper and even electronic tallies, things that carry no intrinsic value.

I think it would be cool if you didn't provide players and currency.  Strictly use barter in the beginning.  And barter for things people need at that.  See if the society is robust enough to come up with its own currency.
Title: Mmog with the goal to survive
Post by: PurpleYouko on April 19, 2006, 02:14:12 PM
That might be a cool idea.  
Title: Mmog with the goal to survive
Post by: Elite on April 19, 2006, 02:19:25 PM
How about having an 'item design' tool, so creatively inclined players can create new items to to/help with tasks. I would like the idea of designing your own dwelling too. Maybe ways of shaping the landscape too?

I like the idea of having the game based on some underlying physics and being as open-ended as possible.
Title: Mmog with the goal to survive
Post by: Numsgil on April 19, 2006, 02:25:44 PM
The only technical issue you run into really is designing something to minimize bandwidth.  If you make it a LAN game then those issues diminish.
Title: Mmog with the goal to survive
Post by: Welwordion on April 19, 2006, 03:00:20 PM
I suggest a resource system were the amount of normally non renewable resources like metal is counted
and the deficit (trough rusting/lost durability and broken tools) is stored into underground lava,and  once a volcano erupt the new rock will have metal veins distributed into it. Note, that stone also might be a non renewable resource, as building can go to crack and crumble.
You might even consider underground eruptions that fill caves and tunnels that were dug in the past.

Of course this requires that the undeground itself is changeable.
Title: Mmog with the goal to survive
Post by: HazD on April 20, 2006, 07:37:34 AM
This is a very interesting topic it seems what you want is a game that incoperates many features of others for example:

1. the survival aspect of MGS3

2. the trade focused economy of Free lancer

3. some of spore's features

etc. my point is complain at companies for the games you want and eventually they will give in.

P.S. Spore is going to be a really great game based on evolution check it out with the 35 min google video.  
Title: Mmog with the goal to survive
Post by: Numsgil on April 20, 2006, 08:40:08 AM
I'm already a Spore fanboy and I haven't seen anything besides that hour long demo floating around online.
Title: Mmog with the goal to survive
Post by: Testlund on April 20, 2006, 08:40:31 AM
This is very interesting to me. I remember many years ago I tried a game where a guy wakes up in a biosphere, I think, where he could explore and learn how to use different stuff. Do you know what game I'm talking about? I don't remember it's name. I've missed a lot of the things you suggests in this thread. So some of you are game makers too then? Just let me know if you need a playtester.  
Also if you have tips on games that have these concepts I whould like to know.
Title: Mmog with the goal to survive
Post by: Numsgil on April 20, 2006, 08:42:04 AM
Probably I'm trying to get a job as a programmer at EA (Maxis) after I graduate, using Dariwnbots as my portfolio.
Title: Mmog with the goal to survive
Post by: PurpleYouko on April 20, 2006, 08:47:35 AM
I'm hitting it from a different angle.

I plan to begin programming this kind of stuff as part of my own business. (Which I hope to be able to set up in a couple of years)
I also do a bunch of internet programming when I'm not actually working on my real job as a research chemist.
Title: Mmog with the goal to survive
Post by: Welwordion on April 20, 2006, 09:32:20 AM
Hmm spore sounds quite similar to "Evo search for Eden" for the SNES.

Oh and envy you guys that are good with programming languages, there where so mayn game ideas I had and I never could realize :/ . Well I tried to learn a programming language but I have a bad memory and my motivations is like a sinus finction or maybe more like a Gauß function?
Title: Mmog with the goal to survive
Post by: Welwordion on April 21, 2006, 03:06:34 PM
Just wanted to say I posted some ideas in the forum Purple mentioned:

http://kuro-tejina.shroom.net/Forums/phpBB...wtopic.php?t=85 (http://kuro-tejina.shroom.net/Forums/phpBB2/viewtopic.php?t=85)
http://kuro-tejina.shroom.net/Forums/phpBB...wtopic.php?t=86 (http://kuro-tejina.shroom.net/Forums/phpBB2/viewtopic.php?t=86)

and something probaly only Purple wants to read:
http://kuro-tejina.shroom.net/Forums/phpBB...wtopic.php?t=66 (http://kuro-tejina.shroom.net/Forums/phpBB2/viewtopic.php?t=66)
Title: Mmog with the goal to survive
Post by: EricL on April 21, 2006, 03:15:54 PM
Quote from: Numsgil
Probably I'm trying to get a job as a programmer at EA (Maxis) after I graduate, using Dariwnbots as my portfolio.
If you ever consider Microsoft, I can guarentee you an interview...
Title: Mmog with the goal to survive
Post by: Numsgil on April 21, 2006, 03:22:25 PM
Do you work at Microsoft?
Title: Mmog with the goal to survive
Post by: EricL on April 21, 2006, 03:33:39 PM
Quote from: Numsgil
Do you work at Microsoft?
Do I really have to answer that?  

I did, for a.... long time.   I left 18 months ago to pursue... personal interests.  

Since others will be reading this, let me be crisp lest I get swamped for recomendation requests.  Having seen your code, and your posts and your passion in this space, I feel confident that Microsoft would be interested in speaking with you and I feel confident that my recomendation that they interview you would not be misplaced.  I can pretty much guarentee that will result in an interview trip.  Whether that results in a job offer is up to you.

PS.  Comment your code better and check out hungarian notation as far as sytax conventions....  hint hint.  

PPS.  Resistance is futile.  You will be asimilated.  
Title: Mmog with the goal to survive
Post by: Numsgil on April 21, 2006, 03:43:17 PM
I sort of figured you had/have some programming job.  Most people who know there way around code as well as you do usually do it proffessionally.

Quote
Comment your code better and check out hungarian notation as far as sytax conventions.... hint hint. smile.gif

I try really really hard to be as readable as possible in code.  So I'm working on it   Sometimes it's hard to figure out if something is making the code more maintainable or just harder to read (like my recent discovery of the power of preprocessor directives.  It's either brilliant or hideous.  Perhaps both.  Sublime code)

Hungarian notation I've never been fond of.  I know that's what Microsoft loves, and I understand why, but generally I like variable names I can pronounce out loud.  lWndHnd and things like that take a bit to get used to

What was your job at Microsoft?  CEO?  
Title: Mmog with the goal to survive
Post by: EricL on April 21, 2006, 04:11:38 PM
Developers at Microsoft (in systems) spend less than 18 weeks a year writing new code.  The rest of the time is design and bug fixing, often on projects that have 100s of developers working on them.  Sometimes 1000's.  It's not uncommon for a large project to have 100,000 bugs found, tracked, fixed and regressed over the course of a release.  When you are writing code for yourself, it's nice to be dense, to have a lot of code fit on one page, use single letter variable names, not spend the time to write paragraphs about what is obvious to you and so on.  We've all been there.  But when a huge percentage of your time is spent on code others wrote, or you are looking for potential bugs or security flaws and have to be very very clear about exactly what the assumptions are at every line...

DB code has a ton of math in it.  The code itself is fine, quite readable, but complex.  It's hard for someone like me to come along and see what's going on right away.  In production code, its very common for there to be more lines of comments than code in a source module, sometimes by a factor of 5 or more.

You get used to Hungarian, you learn to love it and miss it.  It's not used everywhere and as more projects are being done in managed code and C#, things may change.  But the vast majority of stuff is still C or C++.  There, Hungarian in the norm.

As far as my job, I did a whole pile of difffernt things over the years in groups from Windows to Xbox, mostly designing software and managing software development groups.  I even had a hand in VB 1.0.    Most of my tenure was on Exchange Server in various roles.  It's been a while since I wrote production code, so I'm rusty, but once you learn how to ride a bike...

Send me a resume when/if you are ready.  I'll get it to the right people.
Title: Mmog with the goal to survive
Post by: Numsgil on April 21, 2006, 04:22:18 PM
I may drop you a line in a few months when my schooling's finished.

I haven't thought about the various math much.  It's pretty much an art more than a science.  I just play around with the equations until I have something that seems good enough.  Shot decay is like this.  I'll see if I can better comment some of the more obtuse lines of code.

DB's comment to code ratio is like 1 to 4 in the C++ source.  Most of the comments though are in the random number generator code.  I copied large stretches of comments from "Numerical Recipes in C" to help people see what's going on.
Title: Mmog with the goal to survive
Post by: Elite on April 29, 2006, 08:27:37 AM
How about a MMO set on a ringworld/Halo (http://library.psyjnir.net/screens/487/halo7.jpg)

It would make for an interesting setting, no?

There is also the oppertunity to scatter ancient structures and devices around the place ...
Title: Mmog with the goal to survive
Post by: Numsgil on April 29, 2006, 09:15:00 AM
That could be fun because you can potentially see 90% of the world at once.
Title: Mmog with the goal to survive
Post by: Elite on April 29, 2006, 09:48:58 AM
Which would you prefer: sci-fi MMO or a fantasy MMO?

"Any sufficiently advanced technology is indistinguishable from magic"  
Title: Mmog with the goal to survive
Post by: Numsgil on April 29, 2006, 09:58:51 AM
Personally I prefer non fantasy settings.  But I'm not much of a fan of sci-fi either when it comes to MMOs.

What about Western (like Wild West)?  Or perhaps Near Eastern (walk the wilderness for 40 years )
Title: Mmog with the goal to survive
Post by: Elite on April 29, 2006, 10:21:39 AM
Noctis wasn't bad for sci-fi

How about a sort of 'colony sci-fi' (ie. not too far future) coming in slower-than-light ark ships (like Orion (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Orion_project) - in fact, that's 50s-60s America level of technology) to colonise a new world

You might add in a terraforming aspect too
Title: Mmog with the goal to survive
Post by: Testlund on April 29, 2006, 10:49:56 AM
Sounds like AI Planet to me, the best world simulator imo. I'm not sure if it is a project under development. Haven't checked it out for awhile.
Title: Mmog with the goal to survive
Post by: Numsgil on April 29, 2006, 11:15:22 AM
Quote from: Elite
Noctis wasn't bad for sci-fi

How about a sort of 'colony sci-fi' (ie. not too far future) coming in slower-than-light ark ships (like Orion (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Orion_project) - in fact, that's 50s-60s America level of technology) to colonise a new world

You might add in a terraforming aspect too

 I like that.  A "sci-fi" setting that uses technology reminiscant of the 50s and 60s would be really, really cool.
 ---
 I'll see if I can find AI Planet, see if it's as neat as you say

AI Planet (http://aiplanet.sourceforge.net/).

Looks neat.
Title: Mmog with the goal to survive
Post by: Numsgil on April 29, 2006, 03:58:19 PM
AIPlanet is dead, and won't run on any newer computers :/

Another abandoned ALife simulator.  Pray Darwinbots doesn't end up in the same fate.
Title: Mmog with the goal to survive
Post by: Welwordion on May 14, 2006, 10:03:04 AM
Just wanted to mention I found some really nice games in development.

http://www.ageofmourning.com (http://www.ageofmourning.com)
http://www.freeworldonline.com/ (http://www.freeworldonline.com/)
Title: Mmog with the goal to survive
Post by: maheshjr2000 on May 26, 2006, 03:58:41 PM
I agree with a lot of the stuff you guys are saying but I also want to add something else. Why worry about the economy at all? I mean create the world set the recipes and let the players fend for themselves. The smart ones will band together to create a permanent settlement to protect themselves from the wild. The "adventurus" ones will screw the rest of them and try to go out hunting for treasure on their own. "uh-oh theres a lvl 57 dragon or starship. Um I should have brought backup huh." But eventually as the players and their towns grow there will be many oppurtunites for soloing as they will be strong enough to take on that starship or dragon but will still require a core base just incase something goes wrong.

The main point will be that they will create their own barter system and social hierarchy. To address classes. What classes? They will only be limited to what they can carry and what they have trained with. Plus the only thing that will be found in the wilderness/open space will be raw materials so crafters will be neccessary.
NPCS? what NPCS? There arent any npcs in the real world. Players will be forced to create sub-characters if the wish to have that kind of support. The sub characters will be like children but require guarding or food support.
Title: Mmog with the goal to survive
Post by: Numsgil on May 26, 2006, 04:25:11 PM
I agree, I think economies should be an emergent institution in any virtual world.  I understand why professional MMOs don't do it, though: it's a conceptual risk to gameplay.  Having to constantly barter for things could drag a game down, unless the developer is clever and/or spends time working out the mechanics as much as possible.

Which is why I think a MMO would need to hire or consult an economicist.  Both to help create basic tools for the economy to grow on (an obvious example: secure trade.  Trading would entail more risk and be less used if trading weren't secure (if the other guy just grabs your stuff and runs away.))  How the tools themselves are implemented is up to the developers, but economicists will be able to tell you what real economies need to function properly, both on a microeconomic and macroeconomic level (game companies "mint" materials in their worlds via monster spawn, etc., and hence are acting through monetary policy, which effects inflation and conversion rates with real money wether they realize it or not).

As a more advanced example: crafters (in real life, ie: factories) often use "futures" to guard themselves against price fluctuations, which helps smooth out their bottom line (making profits more predictable) especially if they can then sell through futures.

Basically, party A says they will sell or buy product B at time C at price Q, regardless of the future price of that product.  Wiki (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Futures_contract).

A little confusing and non-intuitive, but it helps smooth the economy out.  Definately not something a game developer would come up with on their own if they're not thinking about it.

I think all kinds of economic activity (from something as basic as simple currency to more advanced ideas) could be emergent if a developer were to construct a basic "contract" object.  Contracts could be automatically enforced, written in some sort of scripting language, and be impervious to unauthorized edits, but still allow authorized addendums.  If a contractee defaults (say, he promises to deliver product A to person B by time C, but doesn't), it's written into some sort of contract log (similar to credit ratings in real life) so others can check out another person's rating before entering into a contract with them.

Having all the legal obligations automatically enforced as much as possible would help reduce risk and avoid having too many player lawyers (though someone still has to write the contracts).
Title: Mmog with the goal to survive
Post by: abyaly on June 03, 2006, 06:51:21 PM
Having financial derivatives in an MMO would heavily gear things in favor of people who have a math or finance background.
Title: Mmog with the goal to survive
Post by: Numsgil on June 04, 2006, 02:17:34 AM
And that's a problem?  
Title: Mmog with the goal to survive
Post by: abyaly on June 04, 2006, 12:44:32 PM
Quote from: Numsgil
And that's a problem?  
I wouldn't mind in the least. I just finished a class on options theory last semester ^^
Title: Mmog with the goal to survive
Post by: maheshjr2000 on June 17, 2006, 02:09:22 PM
not just that but how many of those people who will focus on finance will be able to take out mammoths in game! Itll even out!
Title: Mmog with the goal to survive
Post by: abyaly on June 23, 2006, 11:28:26 AM
But the guy who knows how to use  Black-Scholles and has it programmed into his calculator has an advantage in the market, so he can afford bigger guns.
So why wouldn't he be able to take out the mammoth? It's not like he's going to be worse at the game just because of finance.
Title: Mmog with the goal to survive
Post by: PurpleYouko on June 27, 2006, 09:32:40 AM
Quote
Having financial derivatives in an MMO would heavily gear things in favor of people who have a math or finance background.
I don't think this is necessarily true.
Developing an economy and making a living with it is far more about a person making contacts with other people and hashing out deals than it is about scientific forcasting of market trends.

In ROSE, my 14 year old son has very quickly become extremely rich because he does just that. He recognizes people without "savvy" then buys their stuff (or trades with them) at a discounted price by haggling to get the best prices. Then he goes somewhere else where he knows other people want this stuff and sells it at twice the price.
I can't even come close to his trading success rate.
Title: Mmog with the goal to survive
Post by: Welwordion on June 27, 2006, 06:43:47 PM
Yeah its about instinct, playing time social, competence etc. never all people start at an wqual ground.
Take me for example I often have unstable playing times and get easily bored so I am not good in maintaining ingame relationships and I am not patient enough for allways waiting and walking for the best price.

Regarding organization the objects and structures that are provided are vital to how the selfdynamic of the game will develop and even influence the friendliness of behavior.(people get easily captured in structures and behave according, remember the experiment were people were divided in guard and prisoner?)

Such objects are doors,chests, keys (even walls) , lists , contracts(trade, laws, guildstructures), titles, uniforms, emblems etc and eventually avatars, representation of those objetcs.

For example people could create an object called book, divide it into different parts and set the access rights,
then people could apply to a guild by writing their names into a certain list, some other person with more access rights copies the name into another list of full members and the guild leaders apply the enforcement of guild laws onto that list.
Also certain entities could be created to ensure the fullfillment of such rights, avatars of a law (once had something called Dschinn based democracy in mind that used such a system, were the strength of the Dschinn was based on the number of votes)

So basically system that allow segments objects to be combined in a free and dynamical way are the best for most game aspects.
Title: Mmog with the goal to survive
Post by: maheshjr2000 on June 30, 2006, 08:46:52 AM
abyaly I just meant that they wouldnt focus on combat skills as much thats all and those bigger guns prolly require a higher lvl in combat.
I agree with you guys on how to set up law and how the market works in MMOs (talking bout welvordions post first then both PYs and Welvordions)