Author Topic: I still cant see how  (Read 6204 times)

Offline Botsareus

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I still cant see how
« on: November 09, 2005, 09:04:34 AM »
I still can't see how Num can get away by calling me a mindless lunatic.

(anyone other then griz want to add anything on that?)

Offline Zelos

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« Reply #1 on: November 09, 2005, 09:41:24 AM »
can it have something to do that you rant nonesense things?
When I have the eclipse cannon under my control there is nothing that can stop me from ruling the world. And I wont stop there. I will never stop conquering worlds through the universe. All the worlds in the universe will belong to me. All the species in on them will be my slaves. THE ENIRE UNIVERSE WILL BELONG TO ME AND EVERYTHING IN IT :evil: AND THERE IS NOTHING ANYONE OF you CAN DO TO STOP ME. HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA

Offline Numsgil

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« Reply #2 on: November 09, 2005, 11:50:39 AM »
I have never called you a mindless lunatic.

I have said your ideas are not grounded in any semblance of reality.  That implies nothing but that your ideas aren't grounded in any semblance or reality.

Offline Zelos

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« Reply #3 on: November 09, 2005, 12:48:31 PM »
I agree on everything nums, even the part you didnt say
When I have the eclipse cannon under my control there is nothing that can stop me from ruling the world. And I wont stop there. I will never stop conquering worlds through the universe. All the worlds in the universe will belong to me. All the species in on them will be my slaves. THE ENIRE UNIVERSE WILL BELONG TO ME AND EVERYTHING IN IT :evil: AND THERE IS NOTHING ANYONE OF you CAN DO TO STOP ME. HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA

Offline Botsareus

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I still cant see how
« Reply #4 on: November 09, 2005, 01:14:19 PM »
Thats is not true:

The solutions for the geek loophole and nuke problem were systematicaly engenered and tested, before I was sadisifed, I had to restart the FirstBot evolving prossess like 5 times. The code on the ftp was my 3rd try.

The circuler placment idea came from the fact that I abserved robots by placing them in the middle of a dance food source. The robots spread out in an uneven 'circuler' shape. I wanted all the robots finish eating all the food at the same time everywere across, not leave some in the corners. The robots that were placing themselfs on a 45degree axes were getting an unfair lead.

Offline Botsareus

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« Reply #5 on: November 09, 2005, 01:15:57 PM »
Quote
your ideas are not grounded in any semblance of reality

The above post clearly explains how my ideas ARE  grounded in  reality.

Offline Numsgil

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« Reply #6 on: November 09, 2005, 01:30:53 PM »
Let me rephrase.  Your ideas (minus robot placement, which is another issue all together) are not grounded in communal reality.

As is evident in such works as Charlotte Perkins Gilman's "The Yellow Wallpaper" (short story) and Roman Polanski's "The Tenant" (movie), and many others, reality is impossible to discern by yourself.  Humans are built such that what we percieve as reality is only identified as such by group agreeance.

For instance, when I was little I believed there were monsters under the bed.  I persisted in this belief for quite a long time.  I no loner believe there are monsters under my bed, because if there were, they would require a population to be self sustaining, and said population would have had to feed on other children, and so I would have heard stories about half eaten little kids and my parents would have put some heavy boards or something to stop the under-the-bed monsters from getting me having heard such stories themselves.

Basically, I know there are no monsters because my precursors, (ie: parents, etc.) do not acknowledge that they exist.  My perception of reality is strongly influenced on what others agree is reality.

However, this is not always a good thing.  For instance, this exact same communal reality is responsible for the witch hunts in Salem.  However, this communal reality is right far more often that it is wrong, and most people come to trust it and rely on it, including myself and probably most others on this board.

Bots, your ideas and problems and entirely from your own mind, without any outside precursors.  They do not come from textbooks or google/wikipedia research.  Thus your ideas are not grounded in communal reality, and so may be either ground breaking and revolutionary or figments of your imagination like my monsters under the bed.

Either way, Darwinbots is a communal project, and so should reflect communal reality, and thus have the maximum appeal to all users.  I bear no ill will if you can modify the program to suit yourself, just don't expect us all to clamber to add your ideas.
« Last Edit: November 09, 2005, 01:31:11 PM by Numsgil »

Offline Botsareus

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« Reply #7 on: November 09, 2005, 03:40:42 PM »
Thx dude.

So I gess I have to wait for you to see for yourselfs.
I will check back in a couple of years to see if all I have been telling about have been proven.

Meanwhile try the following experiment:

Save first bot with reguler save best robot (excluding the time it is exsibiting firecracker behaviure) several times, (after 8000 cycles each)

Now do the same with the robot using my autosave method. You will see that my method produces a better robot.

If that is not suffisient proof , I dont know what is.

Offline Botsareus

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« Reply #8 on: November 09, 2005, 03:43:21 PM »
several being 4 to 10...

Offline shvarz

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« Reply #9 on: November 09, 2005, 06:15:23 PM »
Don't you just hate people who stand in the doorway, throw insults at you, threaten to leave and never come back, yet an hour later they are still there...

It makes me wonder...  what motivates them?  what keeps them going?  why are they doing it to us?
 :(
"Never underestimate the power of stupid things in big numbers" - Serious Sam

Offline Numsgil

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« Reply #10 on: November 09, 2005, 07:10:03 PM »
DB does have a very different style necessary for evolving bots, but I think it's more in range with how reality is.

Since the bots are actually moving about and feeding, etc., they tend to be really similar to real organisms in how they evolve.  This means it takes time, and in my experience, people are impatient.

And the sim is alot slower compared to others.  But if you have the time to run it for a while...

I've run some very successful mutation sims myself, as have many other people.  Things like autonomous, replicating multibots don't develop, but I think that's more due to the limitations of the sim and less to any fundamental flaw (that is, they don't develop because the controls for such things are ackward, not because they have 1000 memory slots, etc.).  However, within the confines of the simulation, I have seen many interesting and often unanticipated developments.

I have seen bots (both animal and veggy) learn to reproduce more often if they are given food independant of their body size.  Cancerous veggies develop quite early on in many different simulations.  I've had DIN learn to shrink down to little more than 20 body.

I've seen bots learn to always fire.  By always firing forward, they seem to be more likely accidentally hit something else and have that food shot return to them.

Some other things too...

If you're having trouble running an evo sim, maybe it's you and not the program.  I feel that's what Bots' problem was.  He wanted to see DB as the kind of AL sim where things happen fast.  So he has mutation rates jacked way up.  Then he complains when his newer bots are less fit than his original bot.

Well, if he can rig up a system that makes him happy, more power to him.  But it's going to be jsut that: a rig up.  An artifical set of criteria imposed on the bots from above, instead of their own ability to survive shining through.

If he had just run a steady simulation in the 6 months or so he's been trying to evolve his bot, I bet he'd have something really cool to show off.

His changes to the program seem to push more towards genetic algorithms, which artificially reward organisms if they meet some predetermined idea of what is 'good'.  That's just not how DB is built to run.
« Last Edit: November 09, 2005, 07:14:41 PM by Numsgil »

Offline Testlund

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I still cant see how
« Reply #11 on: November 10, 2005, 10:37:03 AM »
What you're explaining here is something I whould really like to see for myself. But I don't understand how you can, as the program doesn't work properly. I've been thinking that if you sometime managed to make this program work flawlessly I whould like to get another computer just for this program so I could keep running it while doing other things on this computer. Evolution is a slow process, I agree with that, and the more you can make this program work natural the more interesting it whould be. I'm so jelous that you manage to run simulations for days with no problems! I just don't get it. It feels like this program is not meant for ordinary users who just want to see bots evolve. It's more like a program for programmers who likes to solve problems. I thought we were getting close to fixing version 2.37.4, but that seems to have died out. Now there are several problems with 2.4.9, wich I have posted a topic about in 'Suggestions' section. If you could FIX those things then we whould FINELY have a program that WORKS! Because there doesn't seem to be an alternative on the internet to download I'm stucked with waiting for you to fix this one, but if it is like you say, Nums; the program works on your computer when it isn't working on mine, what the hell can we do about it. Maybe it's a curse. Maybe God doesn't want us to mess with the concept of life. Maybe we will NEVER see a program that can give us understanding how life really evolves.
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Offline Numsgil

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I still cant see how
« Reply #12 on: November 10, 2005, 11:36:32 AM »
Again, just be aware that because it doesn't work for you doesn't mean it doesn't work.  Making broad generalizations like that becomes combative after a while, and everyone gets ticked, and nothing good comes of it.

Offline PurpleYouko

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I still cant see how
« Reply #13 on: November 10, 2005, 02:53:00 PM »
Quote
I thought we were getting close to fixing version 2.37.4, but that seems to have died out.
I don't know why you think this. :blink:
Maybe the helpful insights from others have died out, but I have been running the source code non-stop for over 2 weeks now. It has crashed from time to time, sometimes because I caused it to deliberately to track down a bug.

Each time I have fixed the bug and posted the fix along with an explanation.

I even posted my entire (stable on all 3 of my machines) source code and executable.

If it is still crashing then please continue to tell me where and how, so that I can fix it.

I am only one man and only have so many hours in a day. If I can't see where it is broken then I can't fix it.

Up till now I have been concentrating on making the mechanics of the actual sim as robust as possible. I have NOT attempted to save or load any sims, settings or anything along those lines. I have just run the program with most of the bots under every combination of settings that I can think of. Obviously there are more combinations than I could possibly test alone so I am relying on you lot to break it and then tell me EXACTLY where, how and when. Including all variables involved and your personal settings.

Please continue to help me get this thing totally stable. I for one have not given up on it.
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Offline Ulciscor

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I still cant see how
« Reply #14 on: November 10, 2005, 09:21:08 PM »
I have the source code [PY] uploaded running from VB as I type; it has been running for 9 hours so far without a single error or problem that I can see.
« Last Edit: November 10, 2005, 09:21:27 PM by Ulciscor »
:D Ulciscor :D

I used to be indecisive, but now I'm not so sure.