General > Biology
Fluid
Peter:
--- Quote ---QUOTE (shvarz @ Oct 19 2005, 01:47 PM)
This is not true with liquid methane
Well, if you are willing to assume that there may be lipid membranes able to survive in ammonia, then why not assume that there may be membranes that will survive in methane? Just turn them inside out - polar sides in, hydrophobic sides out
I won't pretend to be more than a passing ameteur at this, but that actually sounds plausible to me.
--- End quote ---
I am reading this, and for some reason I seem to mis some posts,but yes this is said by someone who hasn't got a clue about the buidup of a mulecule, turn them inside out, what are you talking about. Methane is a carbon atom with 4 hydrox-atoms around it. To say it in simple chemisty carbon with 4 connections is connecting the 4 four hydrox-atoms, how do you want to turn the atomb around and the carbon on te outside and keeping it connected with the hydrox.(I am not sure if the atom H is being said with hydrox in english, but I now it's close and you undstand me.
The reason methane is non-polair is simply becouse, well say it with pictures. That did;nt work let's crete it.
____H____
__H-C-H__
____H____
Here there is on every side an hydrogen, becouse the hydrogen is on every side any charge(+) from the hydrogen is neutralised. Cousing it to be non-polair.
___O(-)__
__/__\___
_H(+)H___
Becouse there is an angle between the hydrox and the oxyen the charge(is this even the correct word) is not being fully neutralised and it is polair.
--- Quote ---This is the best list I have found:
HF,NH3, HCl, HBr, HI, OF2, SeCl2, SCl2,PCl3, SO2, Ch3Cl, CH3Br, SeCl, CHCl3, CO(CH3)2, H2S,CH3Cl, KBr & H20(ion-dipole forces), H2O2, CH3OH(methanol),CH3COOH(acetic acid) , CH3NH2 methy amine, C2H5Oh ethyl alcohol, (C6H12O6 glucose), CH3CH2OH ethanol, 1- propanol CH3Ch2CH2OH, 2-propanol CH2CH2OHCH3, 1-butanol CH3CH2CH2CH2OH , acetone (CH3)2CO, H3O+, H202, CH20
Most of these are too large to plausible
--- End quote ---
I can even make some up, even without nowing they exist. Well these exist I you you have got 1-propanol and 1-butanol, 2-propanol and 2-butanol exist too, so does 1-propanal and 1-butanal exist and 2-propanal(oh you've got acetone already)and 2-butanal. I gues they are looking at fluid's that could be used for living on other planets. In fact you can say there anything, why in fact does it has to be polair. You have to look at the elements that exist at the planet. For one hydrox, exist everywhere in the universe further we exist mostly out of carbon, oxyen. Like most of the polair's you found. Other close elsements would be sulfur,nitrogen, fosfor and silica. There could really be everything used, if something could be used you're just guesing.
Like anybody is going to post on this anymore.
I have got the last post, I have got the last post.
Numsgil:
--- Quote from: Peter ---I am reading this, and for some reason I seem to mis some posts,but yes this is said by someone who hasn't got a clue about the buidup of a mulecule, turn them inside out, what are you talking about. Methane is a carbon atom with 4 hydrox-atoms around it. To say it in simple chemisty carbon with 4 connections is connecting the 4 four hydrox-atoms, how do you want to turn the atomb around and the carbon on te outside and keeping it connected with the hydrox.(I am not sure if the atom H is being said with hydrox in english, but I now it's close and you undstand me.
--- End quote ---
We're not saying that you turn the molecule inside out. We're saying that you reverse the usual thinking about how lipids (fats) form membranes. In a non polar fluid, your lipids (one end polar, the other non polar) would have their non polar tails sticking outward into the fluid with their heads sticking "inwards" forming the membrane, which is reverse of how they work in a polar fluid like water.
Check out this site. The round balls are the polar "heads". The squiggly lines are the non polar "tails". These "bilipid" membranes are the building block of life because they help seperate things that are in the cell from things that are not in the cell.
If you reversed them, and had their heads connect instead of their tails, you might be able to construct life in a non polar fluid. Maybe. Anyway it's as plausible as anything else I've heard. And would allow life to form in methane seas, which are not unheard of in our own solar system.
--- Quote ---Other close elsements would be sulfur,nitrogen, fosfor and silica. There could really be everything used, if something could be used you're just guesing.
--- End quote ---
The problem as you climb down the periodic table is two fold:
1. These chemicals are scarcer, and so it's hard to believe that life would use them over their more prolific cousins.
2. Mass: Amino acids on up would all be considerably heavier. It would be more difficult to ingest and expel them.
--- Quote --- I have got the last post, I have got the last post.
--- End quote ---
cliftut:
I don't have a ton of technical knowledge concerning this stuff, and I haven't read all of the posts, but I thought I ought to mention this.
I read somewhere, probably a science magazine, that scientists found single-celled organisms living fairly deep underground between rocks. Not only were they living in this environment where it was thought life couldn't live, but to do so, they were feeding on methane. Their were able to metabolize the methane and use it for energy. If I remember correctly, they were actually using the methane in place of oxygen because oxygen is rare at those depths. I can't remember all of it, though, so I could be wrong.
So an organism probably could live in a methane rich environment as long as there were enough of other substances for it to live.
If anyone knows anything about these organisms, correct me or elaborate upon this. It's not exactly what you were talking about, but I think it's related.
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