Author Topic: Relativity Mode  (Read 12059 times)

Offline Numsgil

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« on: October 13, 2005, 06:12:39 PM »
Just because I'm masochistic:

This would be incredibly diffiuclt, but it might be fun to model a relativistic simuklation with the bots such that general relativity rules hold true.

Some effects might be bots' DNA executing slower (over several cycles) compared to other bots the faster they go.

Shots could be said to be light particles, and so would travel at a uniform, large speed.

Maybe the speed of shots/light limit is, say, 200 twips/cycle.

Some other effects, it's been too long since I even cared enough to crack open a physics book.

The hardest thing is basically getting into the mindset to figure out how the heck to model it.  The math is always really easy.
« Last Edit: October 13, 2005, 06:13:22 PM by Numsgil »

Offline Greven

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« Reply #1 on: October 13, 2005, 06:25:38 PM »
But then we would have something like infinite mass, and length etc!

It will but extremely hard to program, and what would the fun be, if a bot fills the entire screen, because it moves at the speed of shots... ;)

Do whatever you want, but make it optional.
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Offline Ulciscor

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« Reply #2 on: October 13, 2005, 06:40:53 PM »
What about the spatial transformations that occur when a bot reaches the speed-of-shot 's'?

Could a bot travel faster than this and end up further back in the sim amongst less-evolved bots?
:D Ulciscor :D

I used to be indecisive, but now I'm not so sure.

Offline Griz

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« Reply #3 on: October 13, 2005, 06:53:38 PM »
what would this accomplish as far as helping bots evolve?
iow ...what would be the advantages/disadvantages to
any particular organism? what difference is it going to
make as far as increasing the ability to survive?
or is it just some more math to play with? ;)
 
at any rate ...
no need to make it complicated ...
we only need to simulate/approximate some change ...
the 'actual' change due to the differences in the relative velocities
we are using here would be infinitesimal, eh?
it might be interesting to simply have a 'time' slowdown inversely
proportional [or whatever] to the velocity of the bot making it's
commands take longer to process/execute ...
from 'our' inertial frame of reference ...
as the observer of the entire sim universe.
I don't know that there would be any advantage in altering
the velocity or duration of the shots. ...
but who knows?
just don't know how/if it would contribute to the evolution
of the bots or the simulation ...
seems to me we already have way too many variables as is
to allow much control of the directing things take.

which brings up another point ...
how is the initial seed to begin the randomization selected?
where is the seed?  do we have control of it?
iow ... if we don't begin a simulation with the same seed ...
then any variations we might be experimenting with ...
tryng to determine what changes result in a particular outcome,
are bogus as each run will have a variable that we have no
control over. is there some way that we can select the seed
at the beginning of a simulation ... one we can repeat?

just wondering.
~griz~
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Offline Welwordion

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« Reply #4 on: October 13, 2005, 07:56:35 PM »
I am not understanding relativity theory completely, but I can say you DEFINITELY
NOT understand it.
There is NO absolute speed in the universe, thats why when an object moves RELATIVE to another object both objects can say I am resting right now and the other object moves and is therefore slowed.
(darwinbot only uses an absolute speed relative to the grid)

Also I think an fast object does not get wider, it shortens (distance is reduced)

Well I probably should know more details :/, cause I am studying phsics, but I am not that good, soI so not know anymore right now.

Offline Griz

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« Reply #5 on: October 13, 2005, 08:07:11 PM »
Quote
I am not understanding relativity theory completely, but I can say you DEFINITELY NOT understand it.

 if you say so ...  :D

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Offline Griz

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« Reply #6 on: October 13, 2005, 08:21:15 PM »
Quote
Also I think an fast object does not get wider, it shortens (distance is reduced)

nothing gets shorter ...
or more massive ...
or slower ...
within ones own intertial frame of reference. ever.
these things only 'appear' to be altered from 'other' inertial frames of reference ...
and why one has to employ the lsuch things as Lorentz transformations to understand
what takes place in another reference frame from within one's own frame of reference.
that's why it's called relativity my friend. ;)

here is a decent spiel on such things:
http://cmtw.harvard.edu/Courses/Phys16/l1_...x/l1_latex.html

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Offline Numsgil

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« Reply #7 on: October 13, 2005, 09:18:38 PM »
Hehe, okay, I'm going to go back and reread alot of those posts.  In the mean time:

1.  This would be quite optional, and quite pointless.  An excercise in idleness really.  I have no idea what it would entail or even look like in practice.  I have a hard time keeping all of relativity in my head at once.  It's really quite confusing from a Newtonian perspective.  If nothing else, it would give me a chance to refresh myself in relativity.

The effect on evolution? I wouldn't even venture a guess.  I wouldn't even venture a guess that there would be an effect.

2. Since it takes infinite energy to approach the cosmological speed limit, and bots at best can output a finite amount of energy, bots will never achieve infinite mass/length/or anything else like that.  Neither can they travel faster than the cosmological speed limit, and thus travel back in time or otherwise do some really weird things that way.

3.  Since all inertial (non-accelerating) frames of reference are valid, setting the computer and user as the "stationary observer" is perfectly acceptable.  If you don't understand how the twin "paradox" is resolved, this might not make any sense to you.

More when I actually read through all of what you guys think...
« Last Edit: October 13, 2005, 09:20:43 PM by Numsgil »

Offline Numsgil

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« Reply #8 on: October 13, 2005, 09:22:20 PM »
Quote
which brings up another point ...
how is the initial seed to begin the randomization selected?
where is the seed?  do we have control of it?
iow ... if we don't begin a simulation with the same seed ...
then any variations we might be experimenting with ...
tryng to determine what changes result in a particular outcome,
are bogus as each run will have a variable that we have no
control over. is there some way that we can select the seed
at the beginning of a simulation ... one we can repeat?
Not too long ago I set an option to allow user set random seeds.  This is in the second panel of the options page.

You are absolutely right, without it simulations become much less controlable.

Excellent article BTW.  Everyone who is slightly fuzzy on relativity should read it as a refresher.
« Last Edit: October 13, 2005, 09:35:35 PM by Numsgil »

Offline Numsgil

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« Reply #9 on: October 13, 2005, 09:26:22 PM »
Quote
There is NO absolute speed in the universe

Quite wrong.  The speed of light (electromagnetic propogation) is constant for all inertial frames.  Thus the speed of light is always absolute.

Quote
(darwinbot only uses an absolute speed relative to the grid)

Also true, and since the grid isn't moving, we can say the grid acts as valid inertial frame of reference.

I think, there might be some issues with distance and non-Euclidean space, but now I'm getting into theoretical geometry, which is a horse of an entirely different color.

Quote
Also I think an fast object does not get wider, it shortens (distance is reduced)

Depends upon which frame of reference we are considering.  Objects that are traveling close to the Speed of light relative to us become forshortened in the direction of motion.

Basically squashed.

Quote
Well I probably should know more details :/, cause I am studying phsics, but I am not that good, soI so not know anymore right now.

It's way interesting and mind blowing stuff.  On the bright side the math is all really, really, easy.
« Last Edit: October 13, 2005, 09:28:32 PM by Numsgil »

Offline Greven

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« Reply #10 on: October 13, 2005, 09:39:34 PM »
Well Numsgil, why not begin on the E-grid instead coming up with new ideas again...

I mean, after every new release you come up with another wild idea, which have no real effect for the progress for DB going into the next phase.

Some are okay, others?? Are a little less thought out.

We should really get going on the grid and other things which are more related to evolution and the well being of our bots.

Okay, it will be funny to play with, but wait to add it after the grid, it will be much easier to add shot-speed and that sort, after the grid is finished, because if you first add this, and then the grid, you will properbly have to change the code for the former, and thereby increasing the possiblity of bug.
« Last Edit: October 13, 2005, 09:41:07 PM by Greven »
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Offline Numsgil

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« Reply #11 on: October 13, 2005, 09:45:21 PM »
Haha, yeah, I keep putting off the grid.  It's like some giant stone wall, and this Jericho refuses to come tumbling down.

I'm not super eager to add this Relativity thing right right now.  The "Planet Eaters" thing I suggested took me like 4 months to program.  I generally have two projects I work on:

1.  Needs to be done
2.  I want to be done

I usually work on the first type for a while, then work on the second type to keep me entertained.  The second type are usually not more than 10-20 hours of combined research and programming (compared to like 30 to 70 for major new features like the physics overhaul, the splitting of the VB code from one form into 12 different modules, etc.)

What features do you feel are less thought out?  I generally try to post major features here so we can all discuss them, and then usually refine the ideas in the process.
« Last Edit: October 13, 2005, 09:45:48 PM by Numsgil »

Offline Greven

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« Reply #12 on: October 13, 2005, 09:52:16 PM »
Really what will it give evolution if we add this?
More fun, when getting tried of the usual DB, for us, but the bot!?

Why do they need to be tortured so much, just because we want fun!?

Do you poke the eyes out of a mouse when you want fun?

I mean ;)
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Offline Numsgil

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« Reply #13 on: October 13, 2005, 10:20:26 PM »
I don't think you can argue that a relativistic environment would be easy to adapt to.  I can barely understand it half the time.  I have absolutely no idea what sort of bots would evolve in it, but I would love to find out :D

Basically I'm slowly turning DB into not just a Life simulator, but a reality simulator.  An ideal reality that obeys all the math laws, but still.

Offline Greven

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« Reply #14 on: October 13, 2005, 10:25:00 PM »
I just thought about something...

What about making DB multi-dimensional!!!

Maybe xD!!! Were x can range from 0 to 10!

That could be funny! ;)
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