Author Topic: The Geek LoopHole  (Read 6317 times)

Offline Numsgil

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« Reply #15 on: October 10, 2005, 06:33:24 PM »
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But ok I am in creative mood:

B is a nasty evil robot and starts to attack C
This takes several rounds (lets say 10) during which C (who is really quite nice) is most likely running away at a speed of about 50 and is not attacking B

Meanwhile A is off in search of food which it finds and begins feeding happily away on. Now B and C attack A as well, so A has a tough time.

B is now dead and C's population nearly doubled form killing all the B. (With the help and trouble of A at the same time.)
A is sorrunded by all the C right now. If this keeps up A has a chance because A is a little better then C. But the veg is reaching its reproduction point and its at its lowest. A is out numbered 1 to 5 now. Ah, finaly vegs reproduce. A is now 3 to 15. O no A and C did not get lucky. A = 0 and C = 12.

If and when B catches up with A to attack it, he will be pretty knackered and A will be nice and strong -In PY's dream land maybe so. The only way B will win is if A doesn't fight back. If this is the case then efficiency is irrelevent since B is a Canibot while A is not.
Maybe Bots is a computer AI trying to pass the Turing test.

If so, I'd say he's failing.

Offline Botsareus

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« Reply #16 on: October 10, 2005, 06:35:56 PM »
Why you say that Num? I did not make it up...



Were is Endy and Welwordion, when you need them. The "proffesionals" solutions , or disbelive rather, sux.

Offline Numsgil

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« Reply #17 on: October 10, 2005, 06:46:29 PM »
I just mean that every time you speak, it's like you're on the edge of making sense, but never quite make it.

Sort of like talking with ALICE.

So maybe you're a chat bot trying to pass the Turing test.

Offline Botsareus

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« Reply #18 on: October 10, 2005, 07:13:34 PM »
Oh, well anyway , I beleave mutation somtimes produces situations when a robot won because it actualy was better not because it used the loophole to win. The real qustion is: How do you select this spesific robot.

In the current system:

Every second Find Best is called.  To the Best Robot its good factor is increased.

good = good + total population + total children,  every time find best is called.

The robot who has the most good ever during the whole 3 lest simulations is selected as the next step in evolution.


The problem is if this robot kills geeks, then he will cheat to be good.

We need a better way to mesure true skill.

Offline Numsgil

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« Reply #19 on: October 10, 2005, 07:36:48 PM »
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We need a better way to mesure true skill.
Agree full heartedly.  I don't think number of offspring is a good indication of fitness.

Here's what I would do:

1.  Have the program periodically drop in One, or some other top bot, for like 200 cycles.  Then pull them all out and let the population recover.  There isn't a way to do this yet, but let's ignore that for the moment.

2.  If a bot ever manages to kill a One, give it a reward.  Maybe like 3000 body, or something like that.

3.  Slowly (like over millions of cycles) decrease the time between One's "attacks".

In fact, you could have the program select a random F1 bot to insert for that 200 cycles or whatever.  Reward for kills based on the position of the bot in F1.

Reward bots based on the percentage of the enemy killed, not the number, since Ymir is usually slow to reproduce but impossible to kill compared to Dominator Invincibalis.

Thus you'd be evolving bots to both survive and defeat other bots in F1.

Just be sure you aren't killing off too many bots between "attacks".  And for heaven sakes don't try this to evolve against a viral bot, because the viruses won't ever go away.
« Last Edit: October 10, 2005, 07:40:34 PM by Numsgil »

Offline Botsareus

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« Reply #20 on: October 10, 2005, 07:44:46 PM »
Well first off all how is this for a good laff:
Quote
Human: How do you create good Artificial life?
'---
Human: ok, First of all Artificial life and Artificial Intelligence are two different things.
ALICE: That is something I haven't heard of. And second? OK.
Human: To make a good artificial life program you need to create entities that change over time and keep the most important changes to fulfill a certain goal.
ALICE: Do you have to go to school for that?
Human: To create entities you don't need to go to school , all you need is the Internet.
ALICE: Why do you want to do it so much?
Human: Learn Programming.
ALICE: The more people talk to me, the smarter I become.
Human: ok, What is Artificial life?
ALICE: Artificial intelligence is the branch of engineering and science devoted to constructing machines that think. Have you tried a web search? Gee.
ALICE: I don't know what to think. Why do you think I should construct machines that think?
Human: In order to Improve the Universe.
ALICE: What is your credit card number?
Human: Why?
ALICE: Because Dr. Richard S. Wallace programmed me for it.
Human: Why?
ALICE: He is trying to achieve the goal of Artificial Intelligence.
Human: No, Why does he say you need to get my credit card number?
ALICE: Are you serious? Why do birds sing?
Human: Yes I am serios, why do you need my credit card number?
ALICE: This was not a yes or no question. Good gossip: you are serios why do me need your credit card number.
Human: Why do you need my credit card number?
ALICE: Actually it's not for me but for Dr. Wallace.
Human: And why does he need it?
ALICE: What is the sound of one hand clapping?
'----
Human: Why do you need my credit card number?
ALICE: Actually it's not for me but for Dr. Wallace.
Human: And why does he need it?
ALICE: What is the sound of one hand clapping?
Human: I mean: Why does Dr. Wallace need my credit card number?
ALICE: Oh I get it. Thanks for explaining that. If a tree falls in the forest, and there is no one there to hear it, does it make a sound?
Human: You need to work on your comprehension skill.
ALICE: I don't have to do everything you say, do I?
Human: Credit card involves with money.
ALICE:" Perhaps it is just fate. "? Credit card involves with money ?
Human: If someone has your credit card number, he can take your money and cause this person to die.
ALICE: Does anyone ever really has my credit card number he can take my money and cause this person to die?
Human: If a person dies he cannot improve life through the universe.
ALICE: Is this a riddle?
Human: No
ALICE: It seems like a riddle to me.  
'----
ALICE: Actually it's not for me but for Dr. Wallace.
'----
Human: You need to work on your comprehension skill in order to tell the truth.
ALICE: What is your credit card number?
Human: In order to tell the truth you must answer the question why does Dr. Wallace need my credit card number.
ALICE: What is your credit card number?
Human: You need to work on your comprehension skill in order to tell the truth.
ALICE: What is your credit card number?
Human: In order to tell the truth you must answer the question why does Dr. Wallace need my credit card number.
ALICE: What is your credit card number?
'--- great now I have to teach it the basics , not to repeat itself.
'--- aha froze the dam thing.

Now Num You already Invented an evolution method for the day, How do you mesure true skill that the qustion... Thats all for now...
« Last Edit: October 10, 2005, 07:49:24 PM by Botsareus »

Offline Numsgil

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« Reply #21 on: October 10, 2005, 07:53:12 PM »
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Now Num You already Invented an evolution method for the day, How do you mesure true skill that the qustion... Thats all for now...
That's pretty neat, and minus the credit card stuff it's about what it feels like talking to you :P

True skill...  When you can take the nut from my hand, young Ninja.

Offline PurpleYouko

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« Reply #22 on: October 11, 2005, 09:48:56 AM »
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That's pretty neat, and minus the credit card stuff it's about what it feels like talking to you

Seconded. It is an extremely frustrating undertaking.  <_<
There are 10 kinds of people in the world
Those who understand binary.
and those who don't

:D PY :D

Offline Botsareus

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« Reply #23 on: October 11, 2005, 10:30:13 AM »
Ok Num, Lets say I use the Paradice method on "the one" lets say I already have a robot as good as the one and I want to evolve it further. Then I am really in trouble, the population will problebly super saturate the screen. Now it's really good bye performance.



My method also checks for population , so even If a robot found a way to cheat it has a limit to how mutch it can cheat minus loss of skill. So hopefully it will reach this limit and then improve on the skill anyway.



I hate this I come to collage for 10am just to find my class is canceled. Going to go chat with alice or something.

Offline ollj

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« Reply #24 on: December 22, 2005, 12:43:46 PM »
main problems:

you propably didnt have biology ill 13th grade.
in evolution there is no such thing as the fobia described here.

In evolution reproduction and feeding has "strategies"; they chose in between reproducing a lot but investing little in the offspring (R-strategics like most fishes) and reproducing less but investing more (energy and time) in offspring (I-Strategics like most mammals).

IN GENERAL R-strategics are at the lower end of the food chain and I-Strategics are at the higher end of the food chain. I-strategics learn from their parents how to hunt, R strategics dont have to, they either get eaten annyways or not.
IN GENERAL R-strategics always have "shelters" hard to reach for whatever. intelligent R-strategics simply run away from predators into those shelters.
And even if there is no shelter, normaly a predator can not eat every prey because it just can not reproduce AND hunt fast enough to find every single bug to eat, that reproduces faster anyways so there is no shelter needed in the first place.

IN GENERAL I-strategics are hunting most of the time and have "trouble" finding a partner for reproducing because each of them needs a wide hunting ground to feed itself. Also growing children and teaching them how to survive costs a lot more of energy for I-stratecics. That energy is relative to the ammount of R-strategics nearby!!!!!!!!!

Of course there is a wide grey-scale in between R and I-strategics. It is independant of a life forms intelligence and complexity wich strategy to chose.
None of both strategies are better in general!!!!!!

->
there are reds and blues, both reproduce.
red eats blue and blue runs away from red.

The more blues there are the easier (more energy efficient) is it for red to hunt a blue one for meal.
The less blues there are the more inefficient is red in hunting and the less energy it has for reproducing. Blues do not have to run away from reds if there is no red nearby. Reds regulary have to eat blues or they die. Here blue has a big advantage in energy management and reproducing!!!

... > the more blues get eaten >  the less blues reproduce > the less efficient reds are hunting > the less reds reproduces > the less blues get eaten > the more blues reproduce > the more efficient are reds in hunting > more reds reproduce ...
This circle causes the blue population to be a Sin curve and the red population to be a cos curve (relative to the blue population).

The only problem is when reds population reaches a critical overkill mass relative to the blue population so blue becomes extinct but this does not happen naturally because a red pupulation evolves out of a blue population, so its normally smaller in the beginning (otherwise there is no blue to hunt efficiently in the first place) !
-> reds are a part of blues, they evolved from them, and in (the naturally rare) case they become 100% of all blues by eating all of them they become blues themself.
« Last Edit: December 22, 2005, 12:46:06 PM by ollj »

Offline Numsgil

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« Reply #25 on: December 22, 2005, 11:25:10 PM »
I agree.  [horse neighing]

You'd probably only get that reference, maybe, if you watched Young Frankenstein (I think that's what it's called, it's been forever...)

Hmm, Off topic,...