Author Topic: The Geek LoopHole  (Read 10083 times)

Offline Botsareus

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« on: October 10, 2005, 12:55:00 PM »
Any one wana contribute to solving:



Remember we need "better" robots not "worse" robots. The above are Not better robots.

Natural solutions ,and Artifisial solutions are all considered as always. If we can get Artifisial solutions that match natural solutions of real life I say we got it done.

(Right now I am thinking of trying my lest resort smexe method on it. As Num will say: Involves a lot of ugly coding in many places.)
« Last Edit: October 10, 2005, 12:55:20 PM by Botsareus »

Offline Numsgil

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« Reply #1 on: October 10, 2005, 12:57:13 PM »
Define "better".  I've had evo sims evolve lots of things I didn't think were "better", but you got to reason that they must be, or why else would they evolev at all?

Offline Botsareus

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« Reply #2 on: October 10, 2005, 12:59:32 PM »
Better means "can kik endestors ass in F1 mode"
« Last Edit: October 10, 2005, 02:15:32 PM by Numsgil »

Offline Numsgil

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« Reply #3 on: October 10, 2005, 02:17:15 PM »
I don't think you can evolve such a thing reliably.  As I've said before and will say again, a simulation that's 0 cycles old and 5000000 cycles old are quite different.  The energy levels are different, the sysvars read back different values, etc.

And thing is, you really need a larger population size to evolve things with, and F1 settings don't allow that.

Offline Botsareus

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« Reply #4 on: October 10, 2005, 02:27:02 PM »
Come one guys , the Nuke problem was not so hard , this one is doable to.

Btw: Thanks for all your help Num, Payback is sweet eh?

Offline shvarz

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« Reply #5 on: October 10, 2005, 03:19:50 PM »
I'd love to help, but I can't figure out what you are asking.  Maybe Nums can translate?
"Never underestimate the power of stupid things in big numbers" - Serious Sam

Offline Botsareus

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« Reply #6 on: October 10, 2005, 03:23:51 PM »
Here is what happens now:

Robot A reproduces and produces Robot B and Robot C.

Robot B has a Red Fobia.

Robot C uses the color red.

Robot C kills robot B fast, giving it enough advantage to kill robot A as well.

Robot C is actualy less energy offisient for using the color Red but it kills Robot A anyway.

This prosses happen very often , and  dna develops to favor this kind of ecosystems. Resolting in worse and worse robots.

P.S.

Did my image even load?

Offline PurpleYouko

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« Reply #7 on: October 10, 2005, 03:28:35 PM »
So how come robot A is still in the same vicinity after C kills B.

Presumable Robot A would have moved on by then so if B is less efficient then it won't be able to catch and kill A.

Don't see the problem
There are 10 kinds of people in the world
Those who understand binary.
and those who don't

:D PY :D

Offline Numsgil

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« Reply #8 on: October 10, 2005, 04:11:36 PM »
It's jsut a selective pressure, like anything else.

A better name for this should be the Oedipis Trough.  (Trough as in fitness function landscapes)

How do you stop children from killing the parents?  Well, the obvious way is to ensure children are weaker than the parent ie: reproduce at 5 .repro.  Parents can then easily kill rogue children.
« Last Edit: October 10, 2005, 04:12:11 PM by Numsgil »

Offline Botsareus

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« Reply #9 on: October 10, 2005, 04:16:41 PM »
Quote
so if B is less efficient then it won't be able to catch and kill A.

B is less efficient and C is less efficient but its simply not enough.

Lets say A = 20 to B = 19 C = 19 , but C to B is 25 to 15.

Now what happens is (These are affesincy including population adavantage)
A <---> B  A <---> C : A = 22  B = 18 C = 18
Then
 C <--> B : A = 22 B = 28 C = 8
Then
C <---> A :  A = 16  B = 28 C = 8

The again all over and C dies first , A dies second.


P.S.

Did my image load or not

P.P.S.

PY always thinks I am making stuff up  :P



Num just came up with the a cool solution, Over populate the F1 screen and expect evolution to imporve robots for selective pressure. Going to try it brb.

Thx Num.
« Last Edit: October 10, 2005, 04:29:36 PM by Botsareus »

Offline PurpleYouko

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« Reply #10 on: October 10, 2005, 04:41:46 PM »
For one thing I have absolutely no clue what you are talking about.  :blink:

All these number and arrows seem to have no relationship to each other or to anything else and it appears that you are just arbitrarily changing them from line to line.

Let's try to lay it out differently

[you]Fitness quotients[/you]
A=20 (the fittest)
B=19
C=19

[you]Most likely Sequence of events[/you] Assuming they each end up with the same energy
A gives birth to B
A gives birth to C

End up with 3 robots with equal energy.

B is a nasty evil robot and starts to attack C
This takes several rounds (lets say 10) during which C (who is really quite nice) is most likely running away at a speed of about 50 and is not attacking B

Meanwhile A is off in search of food which it finds and begins feeding happily away on.

C is now dead and B has about half of C's energy (spent the rest fighting)
A is feeding like crazy and is miles away by now. Probably has more energy than B by now

If and when B catches up with A to attack it, he will be pretty knackered and A will be nice and strong. The only way B will win is if A doesn't fight back. If this is the case then efficiency is irrelevent since B is a Canibot while A is not.

I cannot envision a situation where your scenario is even valid let alone likely.

Quote
The again all over and C dies first , A dies second.
Not at all
A is either long gone or is stronger than B
The only way this works is if
1) B is more efficient than A at fighting.
2) B is a cannibot and A isn't
Either way that is just evolution. Where is the problem?

Quote
Did my image load or not
Yes it did.

Quote
PY always thinks I am making stuff up 
So stop doing it then. You just keep reading the situation all wrong IMO.  :P
There are 10 kinds of people in the world
Those who understand binary.
and those who don't

:D PY :D

Offline Numsgil

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« Reply #11 on: October 10, 2005, 04:54:49 PM »
Quote
Num just came up with the a cool solution, Over populate the F1 screen and expect evolution to imporve robots for selective pressure. Going to try it brb.

Thx Num.
:blink: I did?

I must just be so good, I didn't even realize!
« Last Edit: October 10, 2005, 04:55:09 PM by Numsgil »

Offline Botsareus

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« Reply #12 on: October 10, 2005, 06:22:22 PM »
PY , I was talking about A B and C as a species.

And C simply out numbers A and gets lucky.


But ok I am in creative mood:

B is a nasty evil robot and starts to attack C
This takes several rounds (lets say 10) during which C (who is really quite nice) is most likely running away at a speed of about 50 and is not attacking B

Meanwhile A is off in search of food which it finds and begins feeding happily away on. Now B and C attack A as well, so A has a tough time.

B is now dead and C's population nearly doubled form killing all the B. (With the help and trouble of A at the same time.)
A is sorrunded by all the C right now. If this keeps up A has a chance because A is a little better then C. But the veg is reaching its reproduction point and its at its lowest. A is out numbered 1 to 5 now. Ah, finaly vegs reproduce. A is now 3 to 15. O no A and C did not get lucky. A = 0 and C = 12.

If and when B catches up with A to attack it, he will be pretty knackered and A will be nice and strong -In PY's dream land maybe so. The only way B will win is if A doesn't fight back. If this is the case then efficiency is irrelevent since B is a Canibot while A is not.
« Last Edit: October 10, 2005, 06:29:58 PM by Botsareus »

Offline Numsgil

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« Reply #13 on: October 10, 2005, 06:30:21 PM »
That's how evolution works.  Luck is about 90% of what's going on. edit: okay, maybe that's too high, but you get the idea.
« Last Edit: October 10, 2005, 06:30:40 PM by Numsgil »

Offline Botsareus

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« Reply #14 on: October 10, 2005, 06:30:58 PM »
ok looks ugly Num, Waping 421 cycles for 20 minutes. Looks like this is turning out to be a long experiment...