Author Topic: Viruses  (Read 7232 times)

Offline Numsgil

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« Reply #30 on: October 07, 2005, 09:28:32 PM »
Well, throwing precedant and coding difficulty to the wind for the moment...

1.  Representatively, viruses should be bots with like 1 body, or something else.  Basically very, very small bots.

2.  These bots cannot: feed or reproduce.  Maybe can't do some other things.  In exchange, they get charged very little, and can remain dormant for a long time.  Maybe they are self motile, maybe not.

3.  Other bots can feed from these viral bots.  This isn't terribly realistic, (viruses in RL are way too small for bacteria to detect (baring something to the contrary from shvarz).

4.  Virus bots must contact another bot for transmission.  That is, a collision.  Slime would still protect against this infection, but each bot selects a slime "phase" (that the slimy bot sets, so it can be dynamic, following a pattern, or set to accept nothing, or set to a constant value) that allows these viral bots with the correct phase to enter (since these viral bots can also be used to carry useful information).

5.  These viral bots, upon infecting a cell, get to insert their DNA into the host, as well as set certain memory locations to certain values upon entry.  Thus these viral bots can carry any sort of information.

So bots can use these viral bots to communicate with each other.  Viral genes will need to code for any maneuvering they're going to do as a virus (like hunting down cells to infect.  Maybe being motile requires a reserve of energy... I dunno).

The viral DNA would execute like regular bot DNA.

Offline MrMound

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« Reply #31 on: October 07, 2005, 10:36:22 PM »
thats what I was thinking.  but I was saying make a comand so that a bot recognises itself as a virus.  so that on the map the bot is smaller and so that the bot cannot evolve a reproductive or feeding gene.  so that in evolution sims the virus stays a virus and doesn't evolve into something else.
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Offline shvarz

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« Reply #32 on: October 07, 2005, 11:14:18 PM »
Nums, all these rules basically reduce your mini-bot to a particle.  If you look at them, there is not much difference.  

In my opinion, combining the exisitng system with rules for copying DNA that I described above will give all the necessary functionality to viruses.
"Never underestimate the power of stupid things in big numbers" - Serious Sam

Offline Numsgil

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« Reply #33 on: October 07, 2005, 11:36:22 PM »
Oh yeah :P

I guess what I need to do is change the way viral shots are updated.  Instead of having them fly off, maybe they need to be sort of spat out at small speed, and exist in the environment longer.

Whatever method of DNA copying should allow something like:

start
*.thisgene .mkvirus store
500 .vshoot store
stop

to actually work.  That is, get copied into a virus whole.
« Last Edit: October 07, 2005, 11:38:31 PM by Numsgil »

Offline MrMound

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« Reply #34 on: October 07, 2005, 11:37:15 PM »
Quote
Nums, all these rules basically reduce your mini-bot to a particle
I know this is a bit off topic but what is a mini-bot ive never heard of them?
cooperation is working together to achive a common goal
mrmound

Offline Numsgil

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« Reply #35 on: October 07, 2005, 11:37:54 PM »
It's a joking term for the bot with 1 body I described above.

Offline shvarz

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« Reply #36 on: October 08, 2005, 12:27:53 AM »
I thought we were moving away from the whole "gene" concept :)

Anyway, let's take your example:

start
*.thisgene .mkvirus store
500 .vshoot store
stop

I'll re-write this like this:

1 2 >
start
*.thisgene .mkvirus store
500 .vshoot store
stop
1 2 >
start *.thisgene

Now when program encounters .mkvirus it looks for the previous 5 commands and for the same 5 commands after .mvkvirus  Then everything (including these 5 commands is copied into a particle).

Capisce?
"Never underestimate the power of stupid things in big numbers" - Serious Sam

Offline Numsgil

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« Reply #37 on: October 08, 2005, 11:23:10 AM »
Yes, I agree that moving away from gene limitations would be wise.  But in your example, it'll end up copying bits from the next gene (the start), and that could get messy real fast when you examine it as a weapon.

How do real viruses decide what to copy into the viral sheaths?

Offline shvarz

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« Reply #38 on: October 08, 2005, 12:48:59 PM »
Maybe I'm not explaining this right.  If anything, my system makes viruses more powerful than they are now (although only against a specific bot).  They allow insertion of pre-defined code in a specific place in enemy's DNA.

I don't want to write a bunch of code, so let's just assume that each letter represents 5 different commands.  Say your enemy's DNA is: ABCDEFGH

You want to include the string xyz right after C.

Then in your bot you place the following sequence:  CxyzC (one limitation is that x has to begin with .mkvirus command).  This sequence gets packaged into virions.  When they hit the enemy bot, they search for C, they find it and they insert it.  Enemy's DNA becomes ABCxyzCDEFGH.

Enemy bot begins making viruses, they will be exactly the same as viruses coming out of your bot: they will carry the sequence CxyzC.

And you can target any place in genome in this way and you can insert as much as you want.

For evolution purposes, when viral DNA is inserted, it goes through target bot's mutation routines.  Say during infection the second C mutates into M, then your bot becomes ABCxyzMDEFGH - virus became inactive, because there is no second C in the genome.  Say after some time F mutates and become C: ABCxyzMDECGH, suddenly the virus came back to life and it carries an extra-piece: CxyzMDEC !!!

This is awesome!   :boing:
"Never underestimate the power of stupid things in big numbers" - Serious Sam

Offline Numsgil

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« Reply #39 on: October 08, 2005, 01:40:32 PM »
But then viruses only become really useful for infecting members of your same species, or a closely related species...

I'm not saying it's not merit-ful (um, that's not a word, but let's pretend it is).  I just think it needs to be exapnded/modified such that, from the point of view of F1, it becomes a useful tactic.

Offline Greven

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« Reply #40 on: October 08, 2005, 01:41:02 PM »
Very nice idea Shvarz...
10010011000001110111110100111011001101100100000110110111000011101011110010110000
011000011000001100010110010111101001110100110010111100101000001000001111001011101
001101001110011011010011100011110100111000011101100100000100110011010011100110110
010110000011100111101001110110111101011101100110000111101001101001110111111011101
01100100000111010011010001100001110111010000010001001000010100001

Offline shvarz

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« Reply #41 on: October 08, 2005, 08:00:28 PM »
Let's establish a moratorium on development of biological, chemical and nuclear weapons in F1 :)

I don't see why viruses necessarily have to be used as a weapon.  They can be used just for evolution purposes (you just wait, I'm sure someone will figure out how to use them as weapons :)  )
"Never underestimate the power of stupid things in big numbers" - Serious Sam

Offline Numsgil

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« Reply #42 on: October 08, 2005, 09:06:09 PM »
Well, the fact that they have been used as a weapon.

See, I have this nice rock-paper-scissors attack to defense system that's nice and balanced.  If viruses aren't used as a weapon, then that leaves a hole in my nice little table.
« Last Edit: October 08, 2005, 09:06:22 PM by Numsgil »

Offline Endy

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« Reply #43 on: October 08, 2005, 10:06:49 PM »
Quote
We should not just introuce functionality, we need to come up with general rules. Viruses are not something special, they are normal cellular processes gone wrong. So what we need are normal DNA commands that can be used for normal bot function, but also for making virus. Then they will be on equal grounds and different exploits and counter-exploits can be developed.

I was kind of thinking something like this could be done with continual shots, but they can't really make/replicate multiple copies or carry all the information required to reproduce themselves(.shootval). I was originally hoping this would be something like RNA, but we'd need the ability to store way more info into the shots.

I think the SG bots would be more amenable for use with a code snippet virus than normal bots. Maybe have the virus be equally likely to find itself in an active gene as in the junk dna.

I'd like if the bots could also have other retrolife inside their dna. For us these seem to be benneficial in introducing new slight mutations, instead of massive radiation or reproductivly caused ones.