General > Biology
Metabolism
ikke:
--- Quote from: Numsgil ---Tunneling will probably work through ingestion, so I'm going to have to invent a new substance to represent what shapes are made out of. I'm also tempted to allow for liquid shapes: essentially ponds I suppose. The physics would be pretty cool if the bottom of the sim is liquid, and bots use buoyancy to rise and fall, and the top of the sim is more like what we have now, and bots have to fight gravity. I'm still working through how the physics would work for a bot floating on the top of a liquid, but I think it's doable. Anyway, those two could cover water and soil.
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I haven’t looked at the pysics part of the code, to do for tonight. Is there any part I would need to look at in particular if I want to see what you already have?
--- Quote from: Numsgil ---It's the last step that I'm hung up on. I don't know that I like the idea of requiring water or soil or something like that for plants to photosynthesize. It puts a real limit on the sort of sims that people can run. () So another idea is to require substances in addition to light to photosynthesize, and just have them ordinarily be omnipresent.
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To me this would be what I defined as a water shape; pretty much the current environment. So I don't see your comment with respect to complexity. As for the physics of metabolism: I'd leave it at nutrients (isn't this really an expanded version of waste?) and energy. Define a level of presence in the environment for each, and a ratio of consumption when transforming into body by veggies. I don’t know if I created a wrong impression, but to me water was a medium, like soil and air, not a part of metabolism.
I'd not go for modeling the integral ATP ADP cycle. If this was the original idea I do see your point about complexity.
Numsgil:
--- Quote from: ikke ---I haven't looked at the pysics part of the code, to do for tonight. Is there any part I would need to look at in particular if I want to see what you already have?
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Nothing much in the code right now. I have a C++ version I was playing with, that I'm slowly copying from to fill out the C# version.
--- Quote ---To me this would be what I defined as a water shape; pretty much the current environment. So I don't see your comment with respect to complexity. As for the physics of metabolism: I'd leave it at nutrients (isn't this really an expanded version of waste?) and energy. Define a level of presence in the environment for each, and a ratio of consumption when transforming into body by veggies. I don't know if I created a wrong impression, but to me water was a medium, like soil and air, not a part of metabolism.
I'd not go for modeling the integral ATP ADP cycle. If this was the original idea I do see your point about complexity.
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Yeah, the original idea was to model some complex metabolic cycles analogous to the critic acid cycle. But I'm not going down that route anymore.
The bot environment right now, under default settings, is more like air or even vacuum. There's very little reactive forces. The idea I'm playing with is for the users to be able to define specific shapes with some custom parameters. They could make them solid, like they are now, or play with some other settings. Making them a dense liquid would let bots use buoyancy to float and sink, etc. I'm playing with the idea that bots could gather abiotic resources from shapes when they dig into them, and use those as raw materials for various things. The other option is for the user to specify how saturated shapes are in various resources when they set up the custom parameters.
I want to shy away from hard defined things like "this is a water zone, therefore it has properties X Y Z", because I think it's too artificial. I much prefer lots of tweakable parameters and a few defaults to set them to. So you could create a shape, set it to some default (loose soil, water, granite, etc.), then tweak parameters as desired.
I'll probably end up creating 1-3 abiotic resources, and incorporate them into the manufacturing process for various components and photosynthesis. Like maybe you need dirt/rock/soil/whatever to make shell with, or you can make shell without it but you have to manufacture some extra components first, or something like that. On the other hand, by default I don't want sims to have issues with bots being unable to create shell because every single shape has been mined by other bots already (though it might be a fun custom sim).
Then, with those 1-3 abiotic resources, we need a process whereby bots can extract the resources. For a solid shape, they could just ingest some of the shape (useful for tunnelling, too), digest the good bits, and poop out the waste. For a fluid shape they'd do something similar but maybe there's diffusion to deal with, so a bot would have a hard time (diminishing returns) extracting all the useful raw materials from a fluid shape. The trick is to decide if the useful resources are the shape, or if they're embedded in the shape and most of the shape is just junk.
Ah, I'm rambling. Just consider it a brain dump of what I'm thinking right now.
d-EVO:
That is exactly what I had In mind
Will make a small diagram to illistrate it to others
ikke:
--- Quote from: Numsgil ---Nothing much in the code right now. I have a C++ version I was playing with, that I'm slowly copying from to fill out the C# version..
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Four letter word starting with an F. I'll have to wait and have a look at that next time I'm able to use SVN (which is at home).
--- Quote from: Numsgil ---I want to shy away from hard defined things like "this is a water zone, therefore it has properties X Y Z", because I think it's too artificial. I much prefer lots of tweakable parameters and a few defaults to set them to. So you could create a shape, set it to some default (loose soil, water, granite, etc.), then tweak parameters as desired.
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Of course, Otherwise you’d need specific rules for every variation.
--- Quote from: Numsgil ---I'll probably end up creating 1-3 abiotic resources, and incorporate them into the manufacturing process for various components and photosynthesis. Like maybe you need dirt/rock/soil/whatever to make shell with, or you can make shell without it but you have to manufacture some extra components first, or something like that. On the other hand, by default I don't want sims to have issues with bots being unable to create shell because every single shape has been mined by other bots already (though it might be a fun custom sim).
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I was thinking the other way around: not a shape with a predefined amount, but with a contant concentration (infinite supply). Combining the two: initial amount and replenishment rate gives all the freedom. Complexity increasing…
--- Quote from: Numsgil ---Then, with those 1-3 abiotic resources, we need a process whereby bots can extract the resources. For a solid shape, they could just ingest some of the shape (useful for tunnelling, too), digest the good bits, and poop out the waste. For a fluid shape they'd do something similar but maybe there's diffusion to deal with, so a bot would have a hard time (diminishing returns) extracting all the useful raw materials from a fluid shape. The trick is to decide if the useful resources are the shape, or if they're embedded in the shape and most of the shape is just junk.
Ah, I'm rambling. Just consider it a brain dump of what I'm thinking right now.
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Complexity increasing even further…. Simple rules complex behaviour, not the other way around. Don’t know where we are on the scale at this point
d-EVO:
Ok here it is
tunnels will be difficult with db2 which is 2d. no factor like tunnel wall to hold up roof
3d would be easier.
Nutrients from the soil must be prescent in the leaves to photosynthisize
watar must be prescent in soil to form solution that can be absorbed by the plants.
surface area will be a top priority like in real life.
single cells are capable of being auto trophes but wont be very efficient. like alge.
will encourage complexity because of the need to transport nutrients into differt parts of the organism.
roots will be very vunerable to attack encouraging bots to tunnel into the soil.
wery small cells will be capable of remaining airborn.
will at least make it theoreticaly possable to evolve life like we have on earth
note. the green cells contain chloryphyll (photosynthesis). brown cells collect nutrients, and the lime cells transport nutrients
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