Author Topic: Neural networks using bots  (Read 12457 times)

Offline Ulciscor

  • Bot Destroyer
  • ***
  • Posts: 401
    • View Profile
Neural networks using bots
« on: June 06, 2005, 08:16:58 PM »
Hey guys! 'Cos I am so new to DB and am not as well versed in biology and computer science as some of you, I don't know if this is a stupid idea or not.

I was wondering if it would be possible to make a neural network consisting of bots connected together in a specific way? Each bot would act like a neuron in the 'brain'. I'm not really sure what the point of this would be as the network would have to be large and would be very vulnerable to other bots. It's more of a think topic than a practical one.

The net could be used to control other bots, I.e. it could be used as a 'queen' to direct the behavious of 'workers.'

Tell me what you think, and sorry if this topic has already been discussed somewhere else!

Neural Networks

B) Ulciscor B)
« Last Edit: June 06, 2005, 08:22:24 PM by Ulciscor »
:D Ulciscor :D

I used to be indecisive, but now I'm not so sure.

Offline shvarz

  • Moderator
  • Bot God
  • *****
  • Posts: 1341
    • View Profile
Neural networks using bots
« Reply #1 on: June 06, 2005, 10:16:00 PM »
Well, each bot can form four ties, peform logical and math operations, so in my opinion they are quite suitable for creating neural networks.  I imagine that there are better systems for that though.  Yet I am no expert on neural networks...
"Never underestimate the power of stupid things in big numbers" - Serious Sam

Offline Numsgil

  • Administrator
  • Bot God
  • *****
  • Posts: 7742
    • View Profile
Neural networks using bots
« Reply #2 on: June 06, 2005, 11:29:20 PM »
I've been thinking of this for a while, but I'm not sure if the bot language is strong enough yet.  This would work well with veggies that tie together to form a lattice.  Although I'm not sure what plants would think about.

I'll give it a more serious look when I have time.  Probably it just requires a new way of thinking about programming the bots, or perhaps the language changes I proposed.

Offline PurpleYouko

  • Bot God
  • *****
  • Posts: 2556
    • View Profile
Neural networks using bots
« Reply #3 on: June 07, 2005, 11:32:08 AM »
We also need to make tie comunications simpler and quicker. Particularly if we want this kind of thing to be able to evolve.
I have some ideas on that front and that is what I will be working on when I get back to programming next week (hopefully)
There are 10 kinds of people in the world
Those who understand binary.
and those who don't

:D PY :D

Offline Botsareus

  • Society makes it all backwards - there is a good reason for that
  • Bot God
  • *****
  • Posts: 4483
    • View Profile
Neural networks using bots
« Reply #4 on: June 07, 2005, 12:14:15 PM »
Ok lets say we got a working "brain" , now what the hell are we going to use it for?

My personaly favorate for now is: Change Dna to I.o. text into a little chat program. Make a chat bot...

Offline Numsgil

  • Administrator
  • Bot God
  • *****
  • Posts: 7742
    • View Profile
Neural networks using bots
« Reply #5 on: June 07, 2005, 12:22:14 PM »
Well, a neural network is good at making distinctions between the values of actions.  Like if producing shell decreases pain of the organism (bots can't feed on it), it'd learn to do that.  Produce too much shell, and it's pain would increase again (since pain is change in energy, and it takes energy to make shell) so it wouldn't make that much.  So a neural net could theoretically figure out a good balance on the fly by 'learning'.  The hardest part I think is figuring out the basic interactions between the bots/neurons.

PY, if I could make a suggestion, I would move ALL ties into a system like your new one for length and angle.  I'll be working on tie physics a bit too (revamping the entire physics code 'cept collisions.  Stupid drag got me excited about physics, such a headache) so tie angle and length commands may need to be modified in what they do, I'm not sure yet, I'll keep you posted.

Offline Ulciscor

  • Bot Destroyer
  • ***
  • Posts: 401
    • View Profile
Neural networks using bots
« Reply #6 on: June 07, 2005, 12:25:27 PM »
Lol [Bot] I know this is probably a totally useless idea but it's a fun one nevertheless. I don't suppose there could be many applications other than what [Nums] suggested.

I was thinking maybe it could learn to change its own genome using viruses or something crazy like that to give itself an advantage in a situation. Dunno if it'd work though.

B) Ulciscor B)
:D Ulciscor :D

I used to be indecisive, but now I'm not so sure.

Offline Numsgil

  • Administrator
  • Bot God
  • *****
  • Posts: 7742
    • View Profile
Neural networks using bots
« Reply #7 on: June 07, 2005, 12:30:26 PM »
Do you have a good idea how to set up the structure of the net?  I haven't really played with neural networks, so I'm not experienced with the basic structure and interactions between neurons.

I mean, I understand in theory, but I have no idea how to start writing DNA code for it.

Offline Botsareus

  • Society makes it all backwards - there is a good reason for that
  • Bot God
  • *****
  • Posts: 4483
    • View Profile
Neural networks using bots
« Reply #8 on: June 07, 2005, 12:33:57 PM »
I see , basicaly a more complex multibot. I never seen a multibot more then 4 cells big. So yea , this should be fun.

Offline Ulciscor

  • Bot Destroyer
  • ***
  • Posts: 401
    • View Profile
Neural networks using bots
« Reply #9 on: June 07, 2005, 12:42:31 PM »
As far as I know a neural net is a set of idiots each with a certain function, and information passes through the network and is modified and acted upon by the 'neurons.' So I just envisaged a load of bots tied together sending information via the ties, then performing operations on the information until an action is performed.
As for how to code it, I do not as of yet have any idea lol. I am reading about nets right now though so hopefully I will have some good ideas soon.

B) Ulciscor B)
:D Ulciscor :D

I used to be indecisive, but now I'm not so sure.

Offline Numsgil

  • Administrator
  • Bot God
  • *****
  • Posts: 7742
    • View Profile
Neural networks using bots
« Reply #10 on: June 07, 2005, 12:45:26 PM »
Quote
So I just envisaged a load of bots tied together sending information via the ties, then performing operations on the information until an action is performed.
Yep, that's as far as I got.  What information needs to be sent, and what operations need to be performed?  If we can figure that out we can probably put something together.
« Last Edit: June 07, 2005, 12:45:40 PM by Numsgil »

Offline Ulciscor

  • Bot Destroyer
  • ***
  • Posts: 401
    • View Profile
Neural networks using bots
« Reply #11 on: June 07, 2005, 12:53:19 PM »
I think that's the problem, there seems to be no situation where this would be useful :(

Someone help! Lol

B) Ulciscor B)
:D Ulciscor :D

I used to be indecisive, but now I'm not so sure.

Offline Ulciscor

  • Bot Destroyer
  • ***
  • Posts: 401
    • View Profile
Neural networks using bots
« Reply #12 on: June 07, 2005, 02:36:02 PM »
OK just had an idea, what about a network of veggies where a veggie whose energy is below a threshold sends a signal into the net and the others respond by sending energy to it. Like a bucket brigade system.
Also maybe if a lot of the veggies are under attack they could notify the net to move or maybe shift so that the weaker veggies are on the inside of the net.

I also had another idea about making a macrophage style organism which enveloped other bots and killed them either with shots or ties. This would be cool because the net would function as a body and as a brain at the same time. What do ya'll think?

B) Ulciscor B)
:D Ulciscor :D

I used to be indecisive, but now I'm not so sure.

Offline Numsgil

  • Administrator
  • Bot God
  • *****
  • Posts: 7742
    • View Profile
Neural networks using bots
« Reply #13 on: June 07, 2005, 02:46:53 PM »
Good idea, sort of like a jellyfish (they don't really have a central brain)

So we'd use *.nrg and pleas as inputs, .up, .dx, and sharenrg as outputs.  That's a good place to start.  We can add more if we get something good going (this simple system doesn't need a neural net, but if we build one right it can be made more complex).

Then we have to set up a fairly simple and easily expandable structure.  With four ties, a simple grid is just fine.  As veggies get enough nrg, they can expand the grid, so the grid is always growing.

Offline Ulciscor

  • Bot Destroyer
  • ***
  • Posts: 401
    • View Profile
Neural networks using bots
« Reply #14 on: June 07, 2005, 02:49:49 PM »
Cool! The thing is I don't fully understand the dynamics of ties yet... I know they transfer information etc but I don't understand all this aligning and stuff.

Wouldn't we in effect have to get all the bots to swarm in the same direction? Or would the bots in the lead drag the others behind them?

Is there a link I can go to to have the more advanced features of ties explained or something please? 'Cos I'm sort of flying blind at the minute lol!
:D Ulciscor :D

I used to be indecisive, but now I'm not so sure.