Author Topic: Project: New Ancestor  (Read 4988 times)

Offline Old Henk

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Project: New Ancestor
« on: June 05, 2005, 09:39:13 AM »
Hi,

I've set up a folder on the FTP server called NewAncestor. It is for an evolution-project with some of the oldest bots in DB: C_ancestralis and C_filans (also evolved from C_ancestralis btw)

I will post the settings soon, but I think default conditions are good enough; This is a project to bring those 'oldies' up-to-date via evolution.


Name Project: New Ancestor
Aim:
  • evolve older bots that survive easily in new version
  • Evolved bots are far superior to original (in new version)
  • Evolution of new features into the bots
Bots for this project:
  • C_Ancestralis
  • C_filans
Settings: Default
started: 5th june 2005
[/b]

So... anyone interested?  :)

Henk

Offline Shen

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« Reply #1 on: June 05, 2005, 11:34:51 AM »
Im in! I've been testing out my own basic bots, might have seen a few Progenitors floating around the ftp but Ive havnt setup a folder.

By default conditons do you mean F1? I'd advise against that. For a start DB runs a lot faster these days and allows for larger field sizes which can only be a good change. Also lower the veg energy. Post your settings and I'll tell you what I think. Any ideas on mutation rates?

Offline Numsgil

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« Reply #2 on: June 05, 2005, 02:38:42 PM »
F1's definately not a good idea for evo sims.  It's just too empty (population size so small that genetic drift overpowers selection) and too much energy.

I like about 5 nrg per veggy for energy rates.  2.38 will have different settings for nrg to veggy:

X nrg per veggy per cycle
X nrg per kilobody (you get X nrg for every 1000 body points)
Quadratic (32000 gets 60X while 1000 gets 1X)

Should make for more interesting models (and solve the cancerous veggy problem).

Offline Shen

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« Reply #3 on: June 07, 2005, 09:29:48 AM »
I cant get C_Ancestralis to survive at all in the latest versions without boosting veggie to over 200 in the smallest field size. Maybe we need a new bot :D
« Last Edit: June 07, 2005, 09:34:14 AM by Shen »

Offline Old Henk

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« Reply #4 on: June 07, 2005, 10:21:29 AM »
Quote
Im in! I've been testing out my own basic bots, might have seen a few Progenitors floating around the ftp but Ive havnt setup a folder.

By default conditons do you mean F1? I'd advise against that. For a start DB runs a lot faster these days and allows for larger field sizes which can only be a good change. Also lower the veg energy. Post your settings and I'll tell you what I think. Any ideas on mutation rates?
Well I've only recently become interested in Evo-sims, so I'm kind of a newbie in the area. What settings do you advice?

Henk

Offline Shen

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« Reply #5 on: June 07, 2005, 01:26:08 PM »
The most important thing is the amount of energy going in and out of the field, which is turn related to how good your bot is at feeding and burning up its energy. The only thing I can suggest is to experiment with the bot your going to use and try and get a good balance. You want to try and make the enviroment as harsh as possible while still letting your bots survive. Apply some common sense to your sets, veg constantly being repopulated obviously needs more energy, veg constantly maxed out needs less.

I'd suggest using KE mode or possibly Zero Momentum (havnt tried that at length yet, might fun). As large a field size as you run at a reasonably speed. Around ~5 nrg for vegs though adjust it to suit. Also the mutation rates as slow as you can stand, the higher numbers the better chance of bad mutations being killed off leaving decent ones, I use around 25,000 to 50,000.

Offline Carlo

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« Reply #6 on: June 07, 2005, 01:54:15 PM »
Quote
Also the mutation rates as slow as you can stand, the higher numbers the better chance of bad mutations being killed off leaving decent ones, I use around 25,000 to 50,000.

Just an idea for mutations. I'd suggest to put much lower values for things such as gene duplication and gene deletion, etc. This because there are much more variables in a dna than genes, so gene mutations should be more frequent. If you have on average a gene every 10 variables, you should give 10 times more chances to gene mutation to happen, so you should put a mutation number ten times smaller.

Another idea, is to set the mutation rate of mutation rates to some very little value, say less than 10 (or even 1). A mutation of the mutation rates won't change the functionality of the dna (and, if I'm not wrong, won't be counted as a mutation). It will just mutate (sligthly) one of the mutation rates. This should eventually automatically balance the various mutation rates (and the mutrate of mutrates itself) to an optimal value for survival. This is because robots DO have interest in mutating: if they don't, other mutated robots will eventually become stronger and kill them or their progeny. So the point is to find the correct mutation rates, and this can be made through random mutations.
« Last Edit: June 07, 2005, 01:55:34 PM by Carlo »

Offline Numsgil

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« Reply #7 on: June 07, 2005, 02:08:12 PM »
Also don't be afraid to play with costs.  Setting store to a cost of 2 or 20 has some major implications for the bot's energy flow.

Offline Shen

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« Reply #8 on: June 07, 2005, 02:17:04 PM »
Arnt the various mutation rates based on what there is to mutate? If theres more variables the bot will mutate more? So if you have 10 genes making up 100 variables both with 1 in 10,000 chance of mutating, you get a 1 in 1,000 for whole gene alterations and 1 in 100 for variable changes? At least thats what I assumed.

On the project note. Ive been messing with C_Ancestralis and decided it is possible to get it surviving in the new settings, its just hard. Might be fun to try and get it up to date purely through mutations. Are you interested in joining in Carlo, the more the merrier :)

Offline Carlo

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« Reply #9 on: June 07, 2005, 03:49:06 PM »
Quote
So if you have 10 genes making up 100 variables both with 1 in 10,000 chance of mutating, you get a 1 in 1,000 for whole gene alterations and 1 in 100 for variable changes?

Yes, it's like that. So, to have an appropriate number of gene duplications/ deletions, you have to set an appropriate value for gene mutations, that is, a value that takes in account the fact that genes are much less then variables.

Quote
Might be fun to try and get it up to date purely through mutations. Are you interested in joining in Carlo, the more the merrier :)

Oh, thank you. But, you know, I run only ND simulations.  :lol:
Obviously, I'm joking. Tell me which version of DB to use and server name.

Offline Shen

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« Reply #10 on: June 08, 2005, 02:25:14 AM »
Nums Server IP 24.151.208.144 in folder NewAncestor
Im using 2.37.2 but it still has a few minor bugs with reporting mutations, I read somewhere they are fixed in the next version though so it shouldnt make a huge difference to switch when its released.

Attached are the settings I'm using. Its tricky to get a stable population as the bots require so many vegs you cant have alarge field size without alaso having several thousand vegs. That said in my experiments I had it evolve into a C_filans like bot which was much better at hunting and I was able to boost up the size and reduce the veg repop level. If you babysit your bots and ajust the settings we should be able to produce some real killers  :devil:
« Last Edit: June 08, 2005, 02:26:10 AM by Shen »