Author Topic: Mutation Sims  (Read 13359 times)

Offline Shen

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« Reply #15 on: April 17, 2005, 02:38:25 PM »
Do you mean like, High energy sims tend to produce cannibots, KE sims produce slow bots? Ive found that bots will get rid of *any* artifical restrictions imposed on them except where it genuinly is in their interest. That goes for Conspec genes, speed restrictions and anything else you can think up.

An interesting thing confirming Endys results is using *.numties 0 = to stop bots killing there kids instead of a conspec gene is that bots as we know get rid of conspec genes, but Ive yet to have a bot get rid of *.numties 0 =.

Also try running a sim with a basic bot limited to a velocity of 10 in a normal sim, one of the first things they do is remove that restriction and take over the sim. However if you use KE mode they wont because moving at maxvel all the time = death.

I like the idea of similar bots though. What we really need is a standard evolution settings distributed with DB acompanied by a basic bot. Its very tricky to sort out the correct settings and stuff for your average newbie so if us lot could come up with a 'Standard Evo Sim' and get Nums to put it in the next DB release it would be very newb friendly.

Any ideas for a standard?

Offline Numsgil

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« Reply #16 on: April 17, 2005, 03:11:00 PM »
Definately something about size 3.  Too small and nothing interesting happens.  Too big and you'll get slow simulations (I've gotten 5K robots in the latest version on size 4).

Also, you'll probably want corpses enabled.  I've found they slow down both vegs from growing and animals from eating them.  Animal Minimalis takes forever to chomp through a corpse to get back to the main 'meaty' vegs.  And obviously a line of corpses will prevent vegs from growing in that direction.

Offline Shen

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« Reply #17 on: April 17, 2005, 04:27:49 PM »
5K bots? wow, Im guessing thats an F1 bot or something designed specifically for those settings. Either that or your settings are unbalanced :P

I was thinking that any bot to be used the the standard settings would be very basic and unable to reach that sort of level. I use very low energy but very large fields but of course any settings depend entirely on what the bot you use in them.

Offline Endy

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« Reply #18 on: April 18, 2005, 02:34:57 AM »
I not sure which size is the best. It seems interesting stuff always occurs as long as finding food is hard enough(but not too hard). In this latest sim I'm running the Brownian Motion is at the highest. At first this led to an evolved blob of tied bots using shots to feed. Later, as Canni's evolved, they droped the ties, trying to keep their distance from one another, at the expense of easier feeding.

I've started adding genes for the bots to evolve around. Stuff like repro @ 99% and fire -2 shots for bots past 1000 cycles. This way the first bots [you]have[/you] to die off, until evolution steps in.

Any way if you could post your run-away dna, Shvarz? I tried to make a similar gene, but was having trouble getting it to work right.

Endy B)
« Last Edit: April 18, 2005, 02:44:15 AM by Endy »

Offline shvarz

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« Reply #19 on: April 18, 2005, 11:58:03 AM »
It's in bestiary - look for Alga grexa.
"Never underestimate the power of stupid things in big numbers" - Serious Sam

Offline Shen

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« Reply #20 on: April 18, 2005, 12:33:23 PM »
Im currently experimenting with Day/Night cycles but havnt had much success. All it seems to do is destabilse the growth cycles of bots and vegs. Instead of nice smooth curves you get constant spikes. Anyone had luck with them?

For standard settings Im thinking:
  • KE Mode
  • ~1 Brownian Motion
  • Field Size 4-8
  • High Max Veg
  • Low Repop Veg
  • 1-10 veg energy/cycle
  • 2x Mutation frequency
  • Basic Bot
Then make like 2 or 3 seperate setting files for small, big and huge.

Offline shvarz

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« Reply #21 on: April 18, 2005, 01:31:38 PM »
What do you mean by "standard"?

As for day/night cycle: try giving veggies twice as much nrg per cycle, but make a gene for them to store extra energy as body.  Then during night, let them feed from body.
"Never underestimate the power of stupid things in big numbers" - Serious Sam

Offline Shen

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« Reply #22 on: April 18, 2005, 02:15:10 PM »
By standard I mean a setting file and bot that would be distributed with DB so newbies wont have to mess around with the settings, they can just click and go so to speak. I mean I have trouble with the sets and Ive run quite a few sims.

Offline shvarz

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« Reply #23 on: April 18, 2005, 02:21:16 PM »
Oh, OK.  I'd set brownian motion to 0 though.
The important thing about the default settings is that it should have bots with fun behaviour.
"Never underestimate the power of stupid things in big numbers" - Serious Sam

Offline Botsareus

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« Reply #24 on: May 10, 2005, 01:40:27 PM »
ok, I am trying some stuff from shvartz method on my firstBot now, no more messing with the source code.

Offline Greven

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« Reply #25 on: May 18, 2005, 10:42:27 AM »
I agreed on PY and Sprotiel on this one!

I think DB needs to get stripped of all these artificial caps there is on various things.

F.exa.: Instead of having a maxvel cap, make it so that the bots cosumes extremly much energy, and will die off or something like that, and let evolution really work on this!

Alot have been done to make fighter bots, leagues and so on, but I think we need a lot more work to be done for the evolutionary simulations.
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Offline Greven

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« Reply #26 on: May 18, 2005, 10:43:44 AM »
Maybe make an option so you can run leagues on old capped DB and evolution sims with new un-capped!!???
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Offline Greven

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« Reply #27 on: May 19, 2005, 10:41:12 AM »
What I really like to see in evolution simulations:
  • The emergens of 'Tie-Feeders', because this is much better than shooting.
  • The emergens of 'Removal of Birth-Tie', because in a highly chaotic and unfriendly world you dont want to struggle with you mother and use a lot of energy.
  • The emergens of 'Conspecies-gene' (or whatever it is called), you can argue for and against this one, but often a 'genome' killing its offspring or relatives, is not desirable in the evolutionary race.
  • and so on...
  • ....
Millions of these things you all design has yet to show up in the real simulations! I have not seen one of these things.

When I run evolutionary sims, I always use a very simple bot. Simple to not have the many advantages from the design of fighterbots and ideas from all you, but complex enough to survive in a very hostile enviroment.
The only logical mutation I have ever seen (or so I think) is the veggies evolve into a cancer-like veggie.  

I would dare say that 99 % of all simulations we run is unsuccesfull, and the original bot often devolve into lesser fit bots.

I see [you][span style=\'font-size:21pt;line-height:100%\']SO[/span][/I][/you] much potential in DarwinBots, but it is lost somewhere in the middle of the code and because DB slowly evolves into a game, which it is in some ways, instead of evolving into the evolutionary simulation / artificial life simulation it actually is!

I really like DB, but I think we need a little more concentration on evolution and stuff like that.

I think sharz will agree in someways with me, but what do you all other think?

Should DB continue becomming more of a game, than a AL sim?

Check this poll/topic:
Evo sims
« Last Edit: May 19, 2005, 10:55:00 AM by Greven »
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Offline shvarz

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« Reply #28 on: May 19, 2005, 12:04:07 PM »
As long as DB is developing I am happy.  I can use it for evo-sims and have some fun :)

This particulat thread actually describes the spontaneous appearance of conspec. recognition gene :)

As for interesting behaviours, I have seen bots use ties to "float" in gravitation sims.
 
We've discussed this topic a lot and mostly agreed that complex behaviour can only develop in a complex environment.  DBs is lacking the complexity of environment right now.
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Offline PurpleYouko

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« Reply #29 on: May 19, 2005, 01:02:47 PM »
Another problem is the relatively small population available in DB. If you get a couple of thousand bots then the program slows to a crawl so nothing much ever happens.

The introduction of the e-grid and other proposed improvements should help to diversify the population.

I don't actually see DB evolving to become more of a game. It has the capability of being a game and that is great, but it has lost none of the evolutionary side of the program in making it usable as a game.
The fact is that I have put in quite a significant amount of work on improving the evolution aspects of the program. I am still doing so when time permits.

The reason that so many of our evo sims are unsuccessful is because DB is much truer to nature than some other evo-sim programs.
We have no artificial fitness criteria to control evolution so DB evolution is 100% random. The problem is in designing a sim in which natural selection is able to hone the species
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