Do you run evo-simulation?

[Greven]

Halleluja!!!!!! Great Bot GOD  :D

[PurpleYouko]

I will double check my robots in the beastiary to make sure they are the right ones.

Yup they are the right ones. Note that Simple Startbot2 has a top speed of 20 while the rabbit has a top speed of 30.
D'ya reckon they might mutate faster speeds?
Probably not.
Maybe we should level the playing field a little and try them both at the same speed.
Or maybe Simple Startbot 2 should be like a hunting cat and run like heck when it sees a rabbit but otherwise amble along slower.

Adding a gene such as

Code: [Select]

cond
*.eye5 0 !=
*.refeye *.myeye !=
start
35 *.vel sub .up store
stop
could do the trick. It will be just a bit faster than the rabbit but only for short bursts to conserve energy.

[PurpleYouko]

What I also wrote in the evo sim topic, I think the problem with DB is not lack of complex envoriment, but because the DNA structure is so tight that most mutations are bad, and it is so complex we have a very hardtime to find the problem/bugs, because so much can interfere with this: All the genes of a bot etc.

I am afraid that I disagreee with this statement Greven.

Evolution is basically a two part process.
1) Random mutations.
2) Selective pressures, survival of the fittest.

In DB we have the first part more or less sorted. Mutations are 100% random. They may be a little limited in scope by the DNA language itself but they are definitely Random

Part 2 is the problem as I see it. There is only one selective pressure in DB. find the food and eat it. In a bland world with no niches, changes in physical constants or any kind of variation whatsoever, this just doesn't cut it.
We should get stronger fighters eventually but we wil never get robots evolving in different directions to form a stable ecology.

[Greven]

You have a very good point there PY!

But you must agree on the DNA structure of DB is very very complex, compared to other AL sims. When we try to mimic the world through arbitary rules we should not expect 'real-life' behavior. Still DB is, as far as I know, the most ambious (cant spell it right sorry) project yet undertaken, with behavior in mind, and succes in many points when it comes to design of bot behavior. But what really lack, is 'WOW'-evolution, meaning things we couldnt design from scratch, or havent through of, suddenly appear (evolve).

Those things Shvarz is doing (or AZPaul by the way), is guided evolution! This is 'props' to the semi-creationist  ;)

When I think about it a little, I can see that the enviroment isn't complex at all, so I will withdraw my statment about this.  :redface:

But I still think the DNA structure need some re-work! :boing:  :boing:

[Greven]

Think about it! When a tie-feeder suddenly evolve from a simple bot! What a true unbelivable [span style=\'font-size:14pt;line-height:100%\']FEAT/WONDER[/span]! or if the bots suddenly start to communicate, or a species evolve to the fishes or some kind of ant behavior appears!

OMG! It will be so wonderful! I know that it will be way into the future, but still...

Think about the feeling, all the emotions that go through you in THAT moment!

When some of that happens to me, I will give everyone of you a beer!!!!!!!!!!

[PurpleYouko]

And I see your point too Greven.
The entire DNA language of DB is completely artificial.
We have been through this kind of thing before and my main problem has always been that there is no way that any bot can ever develop something that cannot be manually programmed. Therefore the physical restrictions of the bot's DNA code also restrict things that it can evolve into.
This is one of the reasons why I support the addition of as many sysvars, commands and abilitie/interactions of abilities as possible. It will never make the system 100% open ended but it might be that evolution will come up with something that we haven't thought of first.

The only way that I see to make a true evolution system would be to change the DNA language beyond all recognition. Make it exactly (or equivalent of) like real DNA with almost infinite combinations of simple building blocks.

The restrictions then depend on the program to interpret what these building blocks can become and that is where the real problem lies.
How the heck can you code something to be able to do anything?  :blink:

Let's say a bot mutates the ability to make sounds?
The program has to be able to cope with this. That means that it must already contain the code to create/modify and play .wav files.
If a bot becomes multi-cellular, the program has to be coded to deal with all the consequences of this.

Basically you have to hard wire every physical law in the universe into the program to make this possible. The concept just boggles my mind.  :wacko:

As far as DB is concerned, I think we need to work on increasing the variation of the environment and the complexity of the DNA language. DBs need more capabilities to do more stuff and unfortunately we have no option other than to hard wire it into the program.

If you know another way then speak up before my brain explodes.

[shvarz]

Those things Shvarz is doing (or AZPaul by the way), is guided evolution! This is 'props' to the semi-creationist

 :shoot:  :pokey:  :angry:  :burnup:  :plzdie:  :banghead:  :bash:  :cuss:  :tantrum:

You have to defend that!  How is what I am doing a guided evolution?  I take bots, drop them into environment and let them reproduce.  I don't guide them.  Hell, I would not even know how to guide them!  What are you talking about?
 :pokey:  :pokey:  :pokey:  :pokey:  :pokey:

[PurpleYouko]

I think I understand what he means.

It isn't really guided evolution per se though.

It is just that your specific environment (over which you have absolute control) guides the bots toward a certain goal. That goal being the best DNA to survive within your environment.

Therefore any specific environment does tend to favor particular mutations so it is (in a very loose sense) guided toward a certain end.
Let's say you set up a high friction sim with moving veggies (like you did). It will favor bots that are able to chase down the veggies. You know it will do this and that non motile bots are likely to die. This could be construed as a kind of guiding although I wouldn't personally go that far.

The only way to get away from this is to mutate the environment also then there can be no accusations whatsoever of guiding.

[shvarz]

Duh!  This is stupid!

(by the way, feel free to move it to the rant section any time you like).

So the fact that organisms adapt to the environment is "guided evolution" now?  This REALLY PISSES ME OFF!  This is the most natural thing and this is how evolution proceeds in real life!  Environment forces organisms to adapt.  Take Ice Age - it's gotten colder and colder and most warm-loving animals died out and life on Earth adapted to cold environment.  OFF COURSE life adapted to cold environment, because IT WAS GETTING COLDER every day!  Is this guided evolution?

As I said:

REALLY PISSES ME OFF!!!

I decide to create an environment that is different from F1 league conditions and people start calling me creationist!

OK, I am gonna go meditate for a while

 :bigginangel:

[PurpleYouko]

Sure it is how real evolution works and who is to say that isn't guided too?

I say that it is guided.... by the environment!

There is no inteligent guidence involved of course but prevailing conditions sure as hell influence which mutations survive and which don't.

It is obvious that your artificially created environments are a veiled attempt to play God with the helpless little DBs  :P

Just kidding  ;)

All evolutions is guided by prevailing conditions. Mutations aren't but the prevailing direction of the evolution has to be. That is what natural selection is all about.
You are obviously getting robots that are the most suited for their environment. That is exactly as the TOE predicts. All creatures are a direct product of their environment.

However, the environment is a complete fake as all DB environments are, so in that respect the evolution is guided. As long as we have control over the environment then it can't be any other way can it?

If God exists/ed and the ice age was deliberately created to force a new path for evolution then it would by definition be guided. Guiding requires an inteligent input.

Still a valid experiment though  :D

[Numsgil]

Muller's Ratchet, as Schvarz mentioned before, is the overwhelming law of thumb in this case.

I myself didn't know about Muller's Ratchet until Schvarz and AZPaul mentioned it a few months ago.

The concept, basically, is that once an organism has a harmful mutation in a vital gene, neither it nor it's descendants have a chance to recieve a good copy of that gene.  And if this organism is more successful than an organism without this mutation in the short run (like the creation of a cannibot (or a cousinonly-cannibot especially)) then this deletrious mutation will get spread to future generations.

Wiki link:
Muller's Ratchet.

DB is definately along the right tracks for realism.  I don't think I've ever heard of Muller's Ratchet being so harmful to another AL sim before.  BTW, once you get sexual reproduction, the negative effects of Muller's Ratchet are largely nullified.

[shvarz]

Read my lips... err.. fingers: S-H-V-A-R-Z  :pokey:

I am in extremely angry mood today  :help:  That's what whole week spent working on computer does to me.  Otherwise I am just an  :bigginangel:

[Numsgil]

uh...  did I mention spelling isn't my strong point?

[Greven]

Sorry Shvarz, I had no intentions to insult you, but what PY is saying, is actual what I mean, I sometimes have great and clear thoughts  :D , but I have a had time converting them into proper words!  :(

We have been through this kind of thing before and my main problem has always been that there is no way that any bot can ever develop something that cannot be manually programmed. Therefore the physical restrictions of the bot's DNA code also restrict things that it can evolve into.

Again this is true! Humans has done the opposite through the entire recorded history. Looking at the nature and copying it! (To some extent)

But think about an eye! The complex structure is so ilogical. Think about trying to make an eye from scrath in the real world? Or making an camera with the same structure that an eye have!

Everthing in this world can be DNA-coded (again to some extent), and many things in DB might appear before our eyes, that we didnt think of!

I know that I am comparing DB with the real world, but then again some (major) adjustments will make more (fun) evolution simulations.

[Greven]

I promised to creat an entire new DNA structure in the weekend!

This project I have undertaken is much larger than I ever thought of!

There are so many things to think of, it is very difficult to have 1000 of things in mind.

It may take atleast a week more! :)