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DB3 Questions
Numsgil:
--- Quote from: jknilinux ---
--- Quote from: ikke ---
--- Quote ---Specialization will be more of the Lamarckian variety. Ie: inheritable improvement through exercise. Not quite biologically sound, but I think it'll make for the behavior we want.
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--- Quote ---Yeah, something like that. You shoot a lot and you get better at shooting, etc.
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Sounds very wrong. If you want your bot to learn, program a feedback loop.
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I am entirely with ikke on this. At least provide an option to turn lamarckian selection off.
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Not deleted, it's up there
--- Quote from: )-- ---[div class=\'quotetop\']QUOTE ( @ Jan 22 2010, 04:59 AM) [a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=1381398\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a][div class=\'quotemain\'][!--quotec--][!--quoteo(post=1381397:date=Jan 22 2010, 12:04 AM:name=Numsgil]Specialization here is less to do with how strong of a force you can produce, and more to do with how much that force costs you.
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My statements were based on this assumption. How much an action costs limits how much the bot can perform that action. It may be that accelerating at full tilt has become an almost suicidal idea due to energy constraints and atrophy. Especially in situations involving reproduction, where a bot suddenly has much less energy to play around with than it did before.
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I'll have to build a model to be sure, but I think the moving average will still result in the best energy usage over the long haul. Even if short life/death burn through a lot of energy.
If you think about real life, right after reproduction is the perfect time for a predator to attack.
abyaly:
Well, in real life the atrophy/exercise system that you intend to simulate really is there in more complex things. I also think it's going to be closer to a long-haul best than any bot is likely to achieve.
I think on a gut level I just don't like shifting control of a bot away from its DNA and into DB itself.
Numsgil:
--- Quote from: abyaly ---Well, in real life the atrophy/exercise system that you intend to simulate really is there in more complex things. I also think it's going to be closer to a long-haul best than any bot is likely to achieve.
I think on a gut level I just don't like shifting control of a bot away from its DNA and into DB itself.
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Yeah, I can understand where you're coming from. In the end it'll probably need to be something of a hybrid system to handle the butterfly/somatic cells.
bacillus:
I think that the amount of material should not really be a bottleneck for development. Using the butterfly logic, There is still a need for the capacity to turn specialized materials into base resources, so a good way to balance this would be a weighted cost system that allowed exponential-decay costs (another idea is to make the accumulation rate increase), that allowed specialization, and perhaps an increasing cost to develop body mass, which would act as storage space for fitting in more materials. This would mean that a bot with plenty of muscle would have trouble developing fat (but still has the ability to do so), but could still convert that muscle into fat with vastly reduced cost. In this case, the bottleneck for development should either be a.)making more free space or b.)the conversion of resources (which could have other benefits, eg. fat can be digested faster than chlorophyll, so can act as a space/energy holder).
I have a feeling I failed to address about a dozen arguments. Feel free to remind me of anything I may have ignored.
Numsgil:
--- Quote from: bacillus ---I think that the amount of material should not really be a bottleneck for development. Using the butterfly logic, There is still a need for the capacity to turn specialized materials into base resources
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I think caterpillars do it by storing up a lot of fat. The end butterfly is much less massive than the starting caterpillar, because the transformation is extremely expensive to perform.
--- Quote ---so a good way to balance this would be a weighted cost system that allowed exponential-decay costs (another idea is to make the accumulation rate increase), that allowed specialization, and perhaps an increasing cost to develop body mass, which would act as storage space for fitting in more materials. This would mean that a bot with plenty of muscle would have trouble developing fat (but still has the ability to do so), but could still convert that muscle into fat with vastly reduced cost. In this case, the bottleneck for development should either be a.)making more free space or b.)the conversion of resources (which could have other benefits, eg. fat can be digested faster than chlorophyll, so can act as a space/energy holder).
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I don't necessarily want the system to favor bots who choose a "middle way" approach. If anything, it should reward bots who specialize. So I don't want to make fat comparatively cheaper to produce even if the bot already has lots and lots of muscle.
My thinking is that muscle is expensive to produce but you don't get much energy back from it if you try to unmake it. This encourages, if not specialization, than at least inertia in not changing specialization on a whim. Fat lets you get back all or most of the energy you spent producing it, but it doesn't actually provide much or any benefit beyond that energy storage. Chloroplasts are like muscle: they require nrg to produce but don't give much nrg back when you unmake them.
I was playing with the idea of body size. I'll probably relate it to shell. If you produce shell beyond a certain point you sort of "lock" yourself in and you'll have to molt the shell to actually get any bigger. Most cells can grow larger (to a point) just by letting more water in. Ideally I'd like to have "soft shell", which all bots have, which would mimic a cell wall/membrane. If it becomes too thin the cell ruptures, but within that bound the cell can change volume at will. In addition there would be "hard shell", which would add protection but at the "cost" that the cell can't change size until the hard shell is molted. I just haven't entirely decided how best to make that work and how the bot would control it.
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