Author Topic: Darwinbots 3 Progress  (Read 28983 times)

Offline Numsgil

  • Administrator
  • Bot God
  • *****
  • Posts: 7742
    • View Profile
Darwinbots 3 Progress
« Reply #75 on: June 11, 2009, 03:52:24 PM »
Quote from: Shasta
I'm fairly sure we wouldn't be able to use Live to share organisms, unless you somehow work out a deal with Microsoft  It shouldn't be too hard to create a TCP server to handle everything with .net however, so that seems like the best option to me.

From what I understand, community games use live to share high score tables.  My thinking is that either you use live to communicate between your XBox and PC, and then use something else on the wide frontier of the internet, or live will work for all of it.  I still need to experiment here so I'm really just blowing smoke atm

Quote from: NoZ
Hello All

sorry if this questoin is a bit out of turn but im doing my PHD which involves alot of networking, Im not too sure what your currently programming in but if its C, C# or C++ or you can make a wrapper for it then you could possibly use YARP (yet anouther robot platform), its not really ment for the internet but it might work (80% sure) with minimal effort as long as theres one static server of unchanging IP, and would allow you to send robots from one sim to anouther in a string.

I dont know if this is any use to you.

NoZ

My ultimate goal is to let sims share bots using http get/set.  That way we don't need a dedicated server or anything like that.

Offline Shasta

  • Administrator
  • Bot Destroyer
  • *****
  • Posts: 231
    • View Profile
Darwinbots 3 Progress
« Reply #76 on: June 11, 2009, 10:57:00 PM »
Quote from: Numsgil
Quote from: Shasta
I'm fairly sure we wouldn't be able to use Live to share organisms, unless you somehow work out a deal with Microsoft  It shouldn't be too hard to create a TCP server to handle everything with .net however, so that seems like the best option to me.

From what I understand, community games use live to share high score tables.  My thinking is that either you use live to communicate between your XBox and PC, and then use something else on the wide frontier of the internet, or live will work for all of it.  I still need to experiment here so I'm really just blowing smoke atm
I think the only way you could possibly get it to work would be to have a application on your computer running that handles all of the internet stuff, and then passes the data to the xbox -- Through SystemLink (which requires a creators club membership)

As for how the community games use LIVE for high score tables, it is a hack. It is actually a P2P system in most cases, I've also seen talk of setting up a xbox to run as a dedicated server.

Offline Prsn828

  • Bot Destroyer
  • ***
  • Posts: 139
    • View Profile
Darwinbots 3 Progress
« Reply #77 on: June 11, 2009, 11:13:13 PM »
Sorry I sort of disappeared.

Been playing some MMORPG's >.>

Oh, also had a lot of school-work.

I will try and get back into the groove with this project some time within the next week.  I am very glad to hear we have more help and are still making progress.

Keep up the good work everyone!
So, what will it be? Will you submit to my will, or must I bend reality to suit my needs?
Better answer before I do BOTH!

Offline Numsgil

  • Administrator
  • Bot God
  • *****
  • Posts: 7742
    • View Profile
Darwinbots 3 Progress
« Reply #78 on: June 12, 2009, 02:00:06 AM »
Quote from: Shasta
Quote from: Numsgil
Quote from: Shasta
I'm fairly sure we wouldn't be able to use Live to share organisms, unless you somehow work out a deal with Microsoft  It shouldn't be too hard to create a TCP server to handle everything with .net however, so that seems like the best option to me.

From what I understand, community games use live to share high score tables.  My thinking is that either you use live to communicate between your XBox and PC, and then use something else on the wide frontier of the internet, or live will work for all of it.  I still need to experiment here so I'm really just blowing smoke atm
I think the only way you could possibly get it to work would be to have a application on your computer running that handles all of the internet stuff, and then passes the data to the xbox -- Through SystemLink (which requires a creators club membership)

Why not a P2P between your xbox and PC?

Quote
As for how the community games use LIVE for high score tables, it is a hack. It is actually a P2P system in most cases, I've also seen talk of setting up a xbox to run as a dedicated server.

Yeah, I heard that, too.  But having a P2P network would actually work really well in practice for IM.  Have it so that when you first get on you find maybe 3 or 4 "neighbors" you share organisms with.  The end result is a vast network of indirectly connected sims.  Would be pretty cool.

We'd only need a central server little or at all.

Quote from: Prsn828
I am very glad to hear we have more help and are still making progress.

Yeah, we're making some good progress.  I'm pretty close to actually having physics be runnable.

Also, good work on the island stuff.  Looks good.

Offline bacillus

  • Bot Overlord
  • ****
  • Posts: 907
    • View Profile
Darwinbots 3 Progress
« Reply #79 on: June 12, 2009, 03:28:07 AM »
Sorry, I haven't been able to commit anything over the past while. It sounds like the physics engine is all done. If I commit my code now, am I in danger of screwing up any work on the island resolver?
"They laughed at Columbus, they laughed at Fulton, they laughed at the Wright brothers. But they also laughed at Bozo the Clown."
- Carl Sagan

Offline Shasta

  • Administrator
  • Bot Destroyer
  • *****
  • Posts: 231
    • View Profile
Darwinbots 3 Progress
« Reply #80 on: June 12, 2009, 04:26:04 AM »
Quote from: Numsgil
Why not a P2P between your xbox and PC?
You can't, the System.Net namespace is one of the areas that is essentially gone from the .NET compact framework, the only things you can use out of it are the ICredentials interface and the NetworkCredentials class. No sockets, no internet access, and really no access to your pc either.
Quote from: Numsgil
Yeah, I heard that, too.  But having a P2P network would actually work really well in practice for IM.  Have it so that when you first get on you find maybe 3 or 4 "neighbors" you share organisms with.  The end result is a vast network of indirectly connected sims.  Would be pretty cool.

We'd only need a central server little or at all.
Very true, the running of the sim its self is not the problem with the xbox, it is getting the bot files from your pc into the sim.

Also note that even if we did get it to somehow work, anyone who wanted to use it would probably have to own a creators club membership.
« Last Edit: June 12, 2009, 04:28:27 AM by Shasta »

Offline NoZ

  • Bot Neophyte
  • *
  • Posts: 4
    • View Profile
Darwinbots 3 Progress
« Reply #81 on: June 12, 2009, 06:34:47 AM »

Why do people want it on the xbox?
There is a .NET framework for P2P I think http://msdn.microsoft.com/en-us/library/aa371704.aspx
will only work on windows which is a shame but its there

NoZ

Offline Numsgil

  • Administrator
  • Bot God
  • *****
  • Posts: 7742
    • View Profile
Darwinbots 3 Progress
« Reply #82 on: June 12, 2009, 07:56:28 PM »
Quote from: bacillus
Sorry, I haven't been able to commit anything over the past while. It sounds like the physics engine is all done. If I commit my code now, am I in danger of screwing up any work on the island resolver?

I haven't touched anything dealing with islands specifically for that reason.  Update to latest, and then commit your changes.  If there's a conflict, Subversion will let you know.

Quote from: Shasta
Quote from: Numsgil
Why not a P2P between your xbox and PC?
You can't, the System.Net namespace is one of the areas that is essentially gone from the .NET compact framework, the only things you can use out of it are the ICredentials interface and the NetworkCredentials class. No sockets, no internet access, and really no access to your pc either.

Right, but it has LIVE access through XNA.  And you can (I think) run LIVE on a PC running an XNA game, too.

So at the very least you should be able to communicate between the XBox and PC that way.  My thinking is that the XBox version is a pretty dumbed down version, and you interface with it mostly over soemthing like LIVE.

Quote
Quote from: Numsgil
Yeah, I heard that, too. But having a P2P network would actually work really well in practice for IM. Have it so that when you first get on you find maybe 3 or 4 "neighbors" you share organisms with. The end result is a vast network of indirectly connected sims. Would be pretty cool.

We'd only need a central server little or at all.
Also note that even if we did get it to somehow work, anyone who wanted to use it would probably have to own a creators club membership.

Yeah, that's true for now.  Which is why it's so nice that you can get free memberships if you know where to look

Ultimately I'm hoping to have it be a Community game.  The barrier for entry is low enough I think we could make it.  Then anyone with an XBox could run it.

Quote from: NoZ
Why do people want it on the xbox?

Mostly 'cause it's cool   And the XBox 360 is sort of like a mini super computer.  It has three cores running at 3.2 GHz each.  And some crazy SSE (though I don't think it's accessible through XNA).  That's more computing power than even most modern desktops have.  If you took all my other game systems and desktops (and I have quite a few), and put them together, my XBox would beat them all out hands down.

Quote
There is a .NET framework for P2P I think http://msdn.microsoft.com/en-us/library/aa371704.aspx
will only work on windows which is a shame but its there

Hey, that's pretty cool.  Thanks for the link

Offline Shasta

  • Administrator
  • Bot Destroyer
  • *****
  • Posts: 231
    • View Profile
Darwinbots 3 Progress
« Reply #83 on: June 12, 2009, 11:49:09 PM »
Quote from: Numsgil
Right, but it has LIVE access through XNA.  And you can (I think) run LIVE on a PC running an XNA game, too.

So at the very least you should be able to communicate between the XBox and PC that way.  My thinking is that the XBox version is a pretty dumbed down version, and you interface with it mostly over soemthing like LIVE
Sorry to keep being the downer here, but there is no crossing over with LIVE between the 360 and the pc

Offline Numsgil

  • Administrator
  • Bot God
  • *****
  • Posts: 7742
    • View Profile
Darwinbots 3 Progress
« Reply #84 on: June 13, 2009, 01:49:04 AM »
Quote from: Shasta
Quote from: Numsgil
Right, but it has LIVE access through XNA.  And you can (I think) run LIVE on a PC running an XNA game, too.

So at the very least you should be able to communicate between the XBox and PC that way.  My thinking is that the XBox version is a pretty dumbed down version, and you interface with it mostly over soemthing like LIVE
Sorry to keep being the downer here, but there is no crossing over with LIVE between the 360 and the pc

I must be misunderstanding something then...

You can use XNA to write a game to use XBox live, right?
And there's something called Games for Windows LIVE which lets PC and XBox gamers play together.

I'm assuming here that the XNA functionality which allows you to write for XBox LIVE seamlessly integrates in to Games for Windows LIVE.

So you should be able to run a game instance on your XBox, and another instance on your PC, and have multiplayer that way.  Then, I'm hoping, you can have the PC version be something like we're used to, with mouse interfaces and the whole bit.  And you can use it to connect to your XBox over LIVE and send over either parameters for a new sim or bots or something like that.

Since the version on the PC has access to the whole .NET framework, PC instances can even act as an indirect bridge between the XBox instance and the internet at large.

Right?

Offline Shasta

  • Administrator
  • Bot Destroyer
  • *****
  • Posts: 231
    • View Profile
Darwinbots 3 Progress
« Reply #85 on: June 13, 2009, 02:57:39 AM »
Quote from: Numsgil
I must be misunderstanding something then...

You can use XNA to write a game to use XBox live, right?
Yes you can.
Quote from: Numsgil
And there's something called Games for Windows LIVE which lets PC and XBox gamers play together.

I'm assuming here that the XNA functionality which allows you to write for XBox LIVE seamlessly integrates in to Games for Windows LIVE.
Well, yes this is how is should be, but unfortunately no you can not create (with XNA) a game that will work on both platforms through LIVE. GFWL is very much locked down, note how many games actually have cross-platform play versus the number of games that have a xbox and pc version.

Quote from: Numsgil
So you should be able to run a game instance on your XBox, and another instance on your PC, and have multiplayer that way.  Then, I'm hoping, you can have the PC version be something like we're used to, with mouse interfaces and the whole bit.  And you can use it to connect to your XBox over LIVE and send over either parameters for a new sim or bots or something like that.

Since the version on the PC has access to the whole .NET framework, PC instances can even act as an indirect bridge between the XBox instance and the internet at large.

Right?
This brings us back to my earlier comment, to do this a person will need some form of visual studio w/ xna (free), and a creators club membership (pseudo-free). With the creators club membership you can use the system link in visual studio (a connection between the xbox and pc) to "test" multiplayer and we could then pass data this way.

Offline Numsgil

  • Administrator
  • Bot God
  • *****
  • Posts: 7742
    • View Profile
Darwinbots 3 Progress
« Reply #86 on: June 13, 2009, 05:04:22 PM »
Ah, well that sucks

Found this link saying what you are about GFWL.  Sort of surprises me really.  But I guess if you could release for PC, Microsoft wouldn't make any money from you using their LIVE infrastructure.

So yeah, looks like we'd need at least one person with creators club to bridge the gap between XBox and PC networks.  But the XBox versions can still run zero bot sims and network with other XBox zerobot sims if nothing else...

Offline Shasta

  • Administrator
  • Bot Destroyer
  • *****
  • Posts: 231
    • View Profile
Darwinbots 3 Progress
« Reply #87 on: June 13, 2009, 05:51:43 PM »
Quote from: Numsgil
Ah, well that sucks

Found this link saying what you are about GFWL.  Sort of surprises me really.  But I guess if you could release for PC, Microsoft wouldn't make any money from you using their LIVE infrastructure.

So yeah, looks like we'd need at least one person with creators club to bridge the gap between XBox and PC networks.  But the XBox versions can still run zero bot sims and network with other XBox zerobot sims if nothing else...
Yes it is annoying, the vibe I get from XNA (though I really like it) is that it is really just meant for the xbox and windows games are somewhat of a "oh well, you can do those too"

Offline bacillus

  • Bot Overlord
  • ****
  • Posts: 907
    • View Profile
Darwinbots 3 Progress
« Reply #88 on: June 19, 2009, 06:21:58 PM »
Say, has something changed in the repository? I'm still using my original username and password, but it keeps rejecting me.
"They laughed at Columbus, they laughed at Fulton, they laughed at the Wright brothers. But they also laughed at Bozo the Clown."
- Carl Sagan

Offline Numsgil

  • Administrator
  • Bot God
  • *****
  • Posts: 7742
    • View Profile
Darwinbots 3 Progress
« Reply #89 on: June 19, 2009, 10:53:46 PM »
Everything should still be set up.  It might be using a different password than you think.  Search through your email for one called "Your hosted-projects.com user account has been created", it should tell you the password the account was set up with.

You can change it by visiting clicky.  The "Account Name" is Numsgil.