Author Topic: bot sensing abilities...  (Read 3648 times)

Offline jknilinux

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bot sensing abilities...
« on: December 04, 2008, 06:45:01 PM »
Hi everyone, how's thanksgiving been?

I have an idea- we should restrict each cell to only sense one thing at a time. For example, if a bot is able, it should only have a 1x1 resolution view of it's environment, with no distance information. Also, if it can see, it cannot detect chemicals in it's E-grid, and vice-versa. If any other senses are implemented, they will also be mutually exclusive with all other senses, except for homeostasis-like ones. This both emulates real life AND fosters the development of Interesting-Behavior- and multi- bots. For example, to judge distance, we will need to implement at least two bots to use binocular vision.

In fact, this might have caused the cambrian explosion- once animals developed multicellularity, they could take advantage of many new senses, but at the cost of being really complex. From there, it avalanched.

What do you think?

Offline Numsgil

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bot sensing abilities...
« Reply #1 on: December 04, 2008, 07:33:42 PM »
Why only one sense at a time?

Anyway, I have thought about not providing any distance information with sight, but eventually decided against it.  While it would be cool to have an environment where bots need to have binocular vision to judge distance, it's needlessly complicated and actually not much related to reality.  Animals with non binocular vision can actually judge distances reasonably well just from environmental cues, not the least of which is the focal length of the iris needed to get a clear picture.  You can try it yourself by closing one eye and putting your hand in front of your open eye.  You can tell your hand is close to your face because to focus on it everything else gets fuzzy, and if you look at something far away your hand gets fuzzy.

As near as I can tell binocular vision simply enhances distance resolution, especially with objects that are moving and doubly especially with objects with no environmental cues (a pop fly in baseball).

And ultimately, in the end, the environment should be just as amenable to single bots as to multi bots.  Otherwise having multibots is no great achievement.

Offline jknilinux

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bot sensing abilities...
« Reply #2 on: December 04, 2008, 09:24:20 PM »
Quote from: Numsgil
Why only one sense at a time?

Well, because it mirrors nature- you can't be single celled while judging distance and having vision. That requires multicellularity. If we could have remained single-celled and have had color vision and a brain, then we probably would. Perhaps a cell can have more than one sense, for a cost, like 0.1 bp per cycle for vision. So, to have multiple costless senses, you should be a multibot.

And maybe, reduce the resolutions bots have to only one pixel- aside from being totally impossible to make an eye out of a single cell with a resolution of 5 in nature, it costs nothing extra for single bots, and should encourage complex eyes in multibots to increase visual accuity.

Offline Ta-183

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bot sensing abilities...
« Reply #3 on: December 04, 2008, 10:39:26 PM »
Quote from: jknilinux
And maybe, reduce the resolutions bots have to only one pixel- aside from being totally impossible to make an eye out of a single cell with a resolution of 5 in nature, it costs nothing extra for single bots, and should encourage complex eyes in multibots to increase visual accuity.
Once that becomes feasible, of course. It would take weeks, if not months of development to get an MB like that to function.

Offline Numsgil

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« Reply #4 on: December 05, 2008, 09:38:45 AM »
Keep in mind bots aren't necessarily single celled.  They're abstract enough that they could be cells, ants, lions, or whatever.

Offline jknilinux

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« Reply #5 on: December 05, 2008, 12:02:01 PM »
Ta-183-
But don't we want to emulate life as closely as possible, especially if doing so encourages complexity? The purpose of DB is to simulate evolution, not to be a programmer's game. And, from an evolutionary point of view, it is a much better idea to have only one sense per cell.

Numsgil-
That's part of the problem. Giving bots so many senses destroys what is perhaps the biggest advantage of being multicellular- that you can use more than one sense. If a single bot has all the senses that a MB has, then why should it become a MB?
IMO, the cambrian explosion might have occurred because of tissue specialization, which is because of having different abilities for different cells, thereby giving the MB a big advantage over bacteria with only the sense of smell.
« Last Edit: December 05, 2008, 12:44:42 PM by jknilinux »

Offline Peter

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bot sensing abilities...
« Reply #6 on: December 05, 2008, 01:48:40 PM »
Quote from: jknilinux
Hi everyone, how's thanksgiving been?
Not, how are you celebrating sinterklaas?

Quote from: jknilinux
Ta-183-
But don't we want to emulate life as closely as possible, especially if doing so encourages complexity? The purpose of DB is to simulate evolution, not to be a programmer's game. And, from an evolutionary point of view, it is a much better idea to have only one sense per cell.
There are single cells that can use muliple sensors. I understand you stand for multibots. But for emulating real live this doesn't do it.

Quote
Numsgil-
That's part of the problem. Giving bots so many senses destroys what is perhaps the biggest advantage of being multicellular- that you can use more than one sense. If a single bot has all the senses that a MB has, then why should it become a MB?
IMO, the cambrian explosion might have occurred because of tissue specialization, which is because of having different abilities for different cells, thereby giving the MB a big advantage over bacteria with only the sense of smell.
I'm not even completely sure what advantage we then have over bacteria. But overall I think it is more complex then you want to state.
Oh my god, who the hell cares.

Offline Numsgil

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« Reply #7 on: December 05, 2008, 07:02:59 PM »
I don't think improved sensing ability was the reason for multicellularity.  The first multicelled organisms weren't a whole lot more than a lots of cells sticking to each other.  Speciation comes later.  And on the microscopic level I think you'd be surprised how many senses a single bacteria has.

Offline jknilinux

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« Reply #8 on: December 05, 2008, 07:35:23 PM »
Peter-

Oh, right- you're from switzerland. Well, hope stuff's been going well anyway.
Me? Not doing much yet- I don't like how much companies commercialize the holidays these days.

Do you have any ideas on what the advantage we have over bacteria might be?


peter/numsgil-

Yes, bacteria do have sensors for a few ambient things, like temperature and "taste". However, as far as I know, no bacteria and very few protists can sense light, and if they do, like euglena, then they only have very low resolution vision, like 1x1 greyscale.


Numsgil-

By multicellular, I meant with tissue specialization. So, they would have specialized tissues for taste and specialized sensors for light that would be far better than the general-purpose senses of bacteria.
« Last Edit: December 05, 2008, 07:37:32 PM by jknilinux »