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Author Topic: New bot shape  (Read 19974 times)

Offline Numsgil

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« Reply #60 on: October 02, 2008, 02:52:04 PM »
It isn't so bad if the resources can be recovered.

Another helpful thing will be allowing bots to split to reproduce along different angles.  We'll see.  It doesn't need to be easy, just reproducible.
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Offline Cyberduke

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« Reply #61 on: October 02, 2008, 03:09:13 PM »
Yes, angle is better. And then while is still has its ‘birth tie' the new bot could opt to keep it and would become multi-cellular or do nothing and it would just be a regular reproduction.
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Offline Numsgil

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« Reply #62 on: October 02, 2008, 03:44:49 PM »
Yes, that's my thinking.  An incomplete separation results in essentially a new link.  Not all multibots can be built like that, but a great many varieties can.  The reproduction/splitting angles allowed depend a great deal on the physics engine and how flexible it is with bots changing shape.  Splitting laterally or dorsally should be pretty easy.  Splitting at more complex angles... maybe less so.
« Last Edit: October 02, 2008, 03:46:17 PM by Numsgil »
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Offline bacillus

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« Reply #63 on: October 03, 2008, 12:31:02 AM »
Maybe build ties on contact, and let the bots decide if they want to build the tie or not? Sort of a temporary one-cycle birth tie to read a limited amount of variables, replacing .tie with .harden or something like that.
« Last Edit: October 03, 2008, 03:37:55 AM by Numsgil »
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Offline peterb

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« Reply #64 on: November 12, 2008, 09:24:37 AM »
I'm reading the discusion here, shapes, angle points.

just imagine
a bot defined by a skeleton string of containers.

define (head) as (eye)(mouth)(nose)
define (body) as (tail)(spine1)(spine2)(spine3)(spine4)(head)  
Mabe then next be able to set different spine boths weight / mass and friction to rotation with its neighbors.

It would be close to the current darwinbots, but the .tie between the parts should be able to set.
And a new kind of reprodution is required to allow offspring have a skeleton definition like a string or so.

Dough complex would be to also describe legs and arms.


maybe a string like
(mirored) (leg(part1)(part2)) (body)  (mirrored) (leg((part2)(part2))  ((head(eye)mouth)    >> "M(L P1 P2) Body M(L P3 P4) Head"
then next perhaps someting about seize, and friction

Dough that might be able to describe a dog like shape it wont do an octopus with eight legs.
Maybe then the DNA language has to have something like sections, like a new meta command
so you get something like..


structure = "<head><body>

<head>
start
eye5<50
cond
..
.
stop

<body>
cond
.fatt <50
start
..
.
stop

The thing that might hurt this idea is that nature is able to create MB starting with a single cell.
So somehow I got the feeling this should be able to do so with (quite complex) coding in current darwinbots.
another question is that if you create feet, it makes only sense for an environment where feets are handy (like a 3d world).
But then if you have feet, you also need to control them... (maybe some  .mod on age cycle and a muscle ? ) >> not easy.

On the other hand what if only some body parts where allowed to have specific commands (back to 2D) so only a leg section could move a bot.
movement is limited to size of that sub bot.    Then single cell organisms might still exist in there, dough multi cells have a small advancement.
For example you could loose one legg but still be alive, and able to move with your other leg. As long there is a structure (I gues inside the head bot) then regrow.
Specialism in cells isnt a strange idea I think nature uses it too.

well just some toughts..

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Offline bacillus

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« Reply #65 on: November 12, 2008, 04:20:28 PM »
Sounds a bit like framsticks.
The problem with this format is getting all this down in one string of DNA. Each cell should ideally start out the same shape and function, then be able to change its function according to where it is located (probably through a tie variable.) The way you suggest it now, however, seems to be similar to the way most MBs I know of work:

def structure 989
def head 1
def tail 2

cond
 *.structure .tail =
start
...
« Last Edit: November 12, 2008, 04:22:00 PM by bacillus »
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Offline peterb

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« Reply #66 on: November 12, 2008, 08:11:02 PM »
Quote from: bacillus
Sounds a bit like framsticks.
The problem with this format is getting all this down in one string of DNA. Each cell should ideally start out the same shape and function, then be able to change its function according to where it is located (probably through a tie variable.) The way you suggest it now, however, seems to be similar to the way most MBs I know of work:

def structure 989
def head 1
def tail 2

cond
 *.structure .tail =
start
...


.yes

if most MB work like that, then creature shape can allready be defined (based on multiple bots)
What might be improved is perhaps the .language
something to communicate troughout the creature
So for example head had a special channel even if it wasnt a neighbor bot it could be adressed in communciation in both directions.
Then be  able to store energy or control a part by directly adressing a number
So if the head would see something the tail could wag to propell ahead.
5 *.structure 30 *.nrg  store
(adressing the fifth structure and storing 30 energy points in it).
5 *.structure *.eye5 30 floor .DX

It would be nice if somehow shape and function would be a result of the physics in the darwinbots world. (like nature).
So a good tail part's shape is better to provide power, while a (fat)body part is better in storing energy and a head is better for eyes.

dough octopus can use jet propulsion,
Thats hard to get from shape?  >> or is that like I let go a balloon free on a children party pfffffrrfrfrfrfrfrfrrrrrrfffrfrrrrrrt  till its empy  hahaha
If that would be simple, then perhaps fins are more complex, if you would like to make them use of the physics world?.
If the new tube shapes can be used for fins.. then thats great (I dont think a circle can do that)
Maybe a group of circles could do it, but that requires more resources on a comoputer.

If you wouldnt let it make use of the physics, then you might give it only a bonus in specialism for certain cells.
But then the location of those cells wouldnt be important either. (so neither would advanced shapes be important then).
To get it in correct in physics.. hmm that would be verry hard to code, if your able to write such an evo sim..    great!
Well that would be perhaps a bit of a holy grail. If the new tubes get closes to it, then thats great coding
Or perhaps take a little bit of both worlds physics and specialism bonus.









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Offline bacillus

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« Reply #67 on: November 12, 2008, 09:06:26 PM »
I think that the problem is that DB takes the environment as one big vacuum with friction, which prevents more complex interactions, such as tie drag, currents and fluid dynamics such as squirting out water for propulsion (although this would be the same as ties displacing fluid). The main reason for this IMO is that the advantages in doing so (more realistic movement etc. ) are so rarely used that it will most likely never outweigh the drawbacks (mayor memory guzzling).

 Things such as fins shouldn't be too difficult in comparison to a whole dynamic environment, as it's just a matter of friction on a tie. It's more a matter of velocity restrictions making complex movement structures unnecessary at this point. A maximum acceleration may be more realistic that a maximum speed (although that doesn't stop fast single-celled organisms, perhaps a non-linear movement cost sytem would solve that. It's really a matter of balancing the costs so cumulative forces are favored to one big force.)

Evolving properties such as eyesight and storage capabilities in relation to certain resources, such as fat and muscle, has already been discussed much. Each of these should ideally have its own pros and cons, so that one cell can't just save up a whole lot of nrg to make an uber-cell with enough resources to wipe everything else, such as speed restrictions, vulnerability ec.
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Offline jknilinux

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« Reply #68 on: November 15, 2008, 06:37:26 PM »
I for one would prefer tie drag etc... to increased speed.
Besides, with the 64-bit craze these days we can access more RAM than you can shake a stick at, and you can be sure there will be big enough memory sticks to fill the void. So, by the time DB3 comes out in a year or two any worries about RAM size should be moot. Unless there are other drawbacks...
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Offline peterb

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« Reply #69 on: November 16, 2008, 03:51:30 PM »
Memory isnt the problem I think rather CPU speed (as some creatures tend to do a repro bloom ).

Anyway I was thinking these perposed new shapes Half circle tube other half.
I was thinking if one circle would became real small, it would become a point..
And what if a point could penetrate deeper in other shapes to for example deliver poison or mutated DNA ?

Some link between shape and effect on its surounding would make it great.
Also toughts about surounding, are importend as presurre factors on evolution, besides its other friends..

Sunny / humid /dry / cold /warm / acid /posion / bad vision environment / camofl.... etc etc

So like the places we see bacteria the bacteria (bots) these days (everywhere they specialize).

(Maybe get a carbon cycle..) (or nitro... or..)

Oh and I dont think its nice to shoot only at heads, it would be nice to shoot at other functional parts too.
Specificiation, of cells would be a nice thing the get (if there was some force on it, maybe a benefit).

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Offline bacillus

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« Reply #70 on: November 16, 2008, 04:00:11 PM »
I imagine the pressure thing shouldn't be too complicated, although it would have to change the approach to shots. Perhaps a form of body-feeding that can only be achieved by penetrating the enemy cell, and can be stopped using a form of shell?
 What about shell being built up with minerals as well as nrg? Little hexes could freely be floating around, and cluster together with others upon contact. When a cell dies, these are released again, and can be absorbed by 'mining them' or feeding off other bots. These could form 'soil clusters' in which smaller bots could hide in. or plants take up, etc.
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Offline Numsgil

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« Reply #71 on: November 17, 2008, 10:12:28 PM »
Proper fluid dynamics is impossible because of sim speed issues.  However I can fake it pretty well to allow for things like squid bots and fish bots.

Penetration probably won't happen.  I'll think about it some more, but I think it'd be more effort than it's worth.  I might be able to fake it in some way, tough...
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