Bots and Simulations > Simulation Emporium

Co-Evolution

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Moonfisher:
Veggies will probably often be a problem since they recieve so much energy and a small evolutionary step from the alge will require larger steps from the bot for it to survive... if the alge starts sqirming the bots need to track it, which is ofcourse far more complex.
One thing you can do it to set the energy gain for the veggies a lot lower and make it relative to size... this way cancerous squirmy veggies will die out and only slower and larger alge will survive...
Also an extremely high maxcap for veggies will help destroy cancerous veggies as they grow too small and no longer recieve enough energy...
So it's definately possible to set up a sim where veggies are easier to eat, it's just that 40 nrg per cycle no matter what size you are is a lot of energy.
Ofcourse you still have the issue that large veggies may evolve and become agressive, eating any bots that attack them... and if gains are relative to size a fullgrown veggy will still be able to get 32 nrg per cycle even if the gain is only 1 per kiloveggie. But this is a lot less likely to happen though, just throwing 40 nrg per cycle at all veggies with mutations enabled is a recipee for disaster if you're evolving a bot.
But I agree that there's an issue about balancing veggies vs bots, you need to somehow balance the maxpop cap vs the gain in energy, but personaly I can't figure out how low a population would make up for how much energy per cycle...
Maybe veggies should need to use fixpos or something like that in order to gain energy... so moving veggies don't gain anything... or something like that... individual costs for veggies maybe... I dunno...

ikke:
Yes I forgot to metion the high max veggie pop. A must have. Cancerous mutations will explode into up to 3000 botlets. If it fizzles due to low size cap they have time to grow, not explode.

As for the veggie vs bot: I don't understand your point. It seems twofold. First you talk about energy gain (total energy?) vs population size. Then you discuss the issue of the hare being outrun by the salade. I agree that is ridiculous, but it is another subject, or am I missing your point?

Moonfisher:
Well yes I'm basicaly saying the salad is outrunning the hare
But my point is that veggies hold an advantage in gaining energy but also needs to be more carefull if there's a low veggy cap.
If a veggy is agressive it risks getting killed, but the extra energy gained from killing a bot may not help much in producing offspring since the cap is preventing it.
So this forces veggies to focus on running away most of the time.
So for instance a high veggy cap of 3000 combined with the standard 40 nrg per veggy per cycle would make the veggies a lot stronger than any bots could hope to be. Sure the bot can exceed 3000 in population but that's hardly a great advantage.
Keeping a low energy gain based on size and a more moderate veggy cap will make the veggies far less potent. Ofcourse you can also choose to set the mutations on the veggies lower when you're starting the sim, that might force the veggies to evolve slower. But the problem remains that it takes very litle for the veggies to become to elusive for the bots to follow, so you either need to start out with a strong bot able to handle what is to come or tweek either mutations or nrg gain and veggy cap to balance bots and veggies.
Personaly I think the best long term solution is to balance the energy gain mainly and I would still keep a moderate veggy cap. If the nrg gain is relative to size, the cancerous veggies should die because they don't gain enough energy to grow if they get too small. Also small veggies are a real pain for evo bots.
And you can always regulate the energy gain as you go along, as long as the changes aren't too drastic.
But can't say I know anything for sure, just sugestions, I usualy disable mutations on the alge, the new sim I'm running has mutations on the alge, but it hasn't become a problem yet.
The veggies ahve evolves something that ends up pushing a value into locations 1-15 randomly, so they squirm around, but the bots are still able to feed off them so far. (Also the bots are mutating more frequently than the veggies, and have a higher chance to insert code and lower chance to delete a large chunk, that may be helping them keep up with the alge)
But if the alge get too powerfull I plan on reducing energy gain, before they start to depend on it too much.

Numsgil:

--- Quote from: ikke ---I'm not at home, and my schedule only has me at homefor 12 hours this weekend, so it'll probably be next weekend before I can look if I still have a copy.
As for veggies being cancerous: in the general settings check kilo bodypoint for veggie energy end keep the nrg number low once you have the sim running (low is below 20). This will kill off cancerous veggie strains, because they need size to get food. They reproduce too fast to grow, are too small to sustain their energy needs and die. Check out any of my evo sims, if you want to look at means for population control (veggie energy, energy management, custom simulation cost->dynamic cost are the options to look at)
edit: an early stage of the sim can be found in the thread
--- End quote ---

I actually implemented the per kilobody feeding method because of that sim.  That and the more dynamic bot sizes, since it irked me that the veggies looked like regular bots but didn't have more than half a dozen nrg and maybe 1 body point.


--- Quote from: jknilinux ---Also, Numsgil- Do you have a copy of that sim, before it crashed? We could probably continue it today and prevent the ecocide with tweaked settings.
--- End quote ---

Unfortunately, no.

jknilinux:

--- Quote from: Moonfisher ---Well yes I'm basicaly saying the salad is outrunning the hare
But my point is that veggies hold an advantage in gaining energy but also needs to be more carefull if there's a low veggy cap.
If a veggy is agressive it risks getting killed, but the extra energy gained from killing a bot may not help much in producing offspring since the cap is preventing it.
So this forces veggies to focus on running away most of the time.
So for instance a high veggy cap of 3000 combined with the standard 40 nrg per veggy per cycle would make the veggies a lot stronger than any bots could hope to be. Sure the bot can exceed 3000 in population but that's hardly a great advantage.
Keeping a low energy gain based on size and a more moderate veggy cap will make the veggies far less potent. Ofcourse you can also choose to set the mutations on the veggies lower when you're starting the sim, that might force the veggies to evolve slower. But the problem remains that it takes very litle for the veggies to become to elusive for the bots to follow, so you either need to start out with a strong bot able to handle what is to come or tweek either mutations or nrg gain and veggy cap to balance bots and veggies.
Personaly I think the best long term solution is to balance the energy gain mainly and I would still keep a moderate veggy cap. If the nrg gain is relative to size, the cancerous veggies should die because they don't gain enough energy to grow if they get too small. Also small veggies are a real pain for evo bots.
And you can always regulate the energy gain as you go along, as long as the changes aren't too drastic.
But can't say I know anything for sure, just sugestions, I usualy disable mutations on the alge, the new sim I'm running has mutations on the alge, but it hasn't become a problem yet.
The veggies ahve evolves something that ends up pushing a value into locations 1-15 randomly, so they squirm around, but the bots are still able to feed off them so far. (Also the bots are mutating more frequently than the veggies, and have a higher chance to insert code and lower chance to delete a large chunk, that may be helping them keep up with the alge)
But if the alge get too powerfull I plan on reducing energy gain, before they start to depend on it too much.
--- End quote ---

Ikke, moonfisher-

The problem here is that it's best for the algae to avoid the bots, since bots kill algae. No matter what, even using your modified settings, if they can evolve, they WILL evolve to avoid their predators.

That's why I suggested pollination- if they need each other, then the salad won't want to kill everything. But as long as we have the bots kill algae, and the algae don't need the bots, then it's just an arms race- who will win, the simple bots that get free nrg, or the ones that start out complex but need to eat the simple ones? Of course, in the long run, the simple ones will evolve to kill the complex ones, and all evosims will end with algal takeovers.

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